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Darwin-L Message Log 18: 1–27 — February 1995

Academic Discussion on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L was an international discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences, active from 1993–1997. Darwin-L was established to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among scholars, scientists, and researchers in these fields. The group had more than 600 members from 35 countries, and produced a consistently high level of discussion over its several years of operation. Darwin-L was not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin, but instead addressed the entire range of historical sciences from an explicitly comparative perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical geography, historical anthropology, and related “palaetiological” fields.

This log contains public messages posted to the Darwin-L discussion group during February 1995. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.

The master copy of this log is maintained in the Darwin-L Archives (rjohara.net/darwin) by Dr. Robert J. O’Hara. The Darwin-L Archives also contain additional information about the Darwin-L discussion group, the complete Today in the Historical Sciences calendar for every month of the year, a collection of recommended readings on the historical sciences, and an account of William Whewell’s concept of “palaetiology.”


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DARWIN-L MESSAGE LOG 18: 1-27 -- FEBRUARY 1995
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DARWIN-L
A Network Discussion Group on the
History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu is an international network discussion group on
the history and theory of the historical sciences.  Darwin-L was established
in September 1993 to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of
which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present,
and to encourage communication among academic professionals in these fields.
Darwin-L is not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles
Darwin but instead addresses the entire range of historical sciences from an
interdisciplinary perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical
linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology,
systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical
anthropology, historical geography, and related "palaetiological" fields.

This log contains the public messages posted to Darwin-L during February 1995.
It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease
of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been
reformatted, and some administrative messages and personal messages posted to
the group as a whole have been deleted.  No genuine editorial changes have been
made to the content of any of the posts.  This log is provided for personal
reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein
should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.
The master copy of this log is maintained in the archives of Darwin-L by
listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu, and is also available on the Darwin-L gopher at
rjohara.uncg.edu.  For instructions on how to retrieve copies of this and other
log files, and for additional information about Darwin-L, send the e-mail
message INFO DARWIN-L to listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu, or connect to the
Darwin-L gopher at rjohara.uncg.edu.

Darwin-L is administered by Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu), Center for
Critical Inquiry in the Liberal Arts and Department of Biology, University of
North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A., and it
is supported by the Center for Critical Inquiry, University of North Carolina
at Greensboro, and the Department of History and the Academic Computing Center,
University of Kansas.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:1>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Wed Feb  1 00:27:45 1995

Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 01:27:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: List owner's monthly greeting
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

Greetings to all Darwin-L subscribers.  On the first of every month I send
out a short note on the status of our group, along with a reminder of basic
commands.

Darwin-L is an international discussion group for professionals in the
historical sciences.  It is not devoted to any particular discipline, such
as evolutionary biology, but rather endeavors to promote interdisciplinary
comparisons among all the historical sciences.  Darwin-L was established in
September 1993, and we now have over 600 members from more than 30 countries.
I am grateful to all of our members for their continuing interest and their
many contributions.

Darwin-L is occasionally a "high-volume" discussion group.  Subscribers
who feel burdened from time to time by their Darwin-L mail may wish to take
advantage of the digest option described below.

Because different mail systems work differently, not all subscribers can
see the e-mail address of the original sender of each message in the message
header (some people only see "Darwin-L" as the source).  Please include your
name and e-mail address at the end of every message you post so that everyone
can identify you and reply privately if appropriate.  Remember also that in
most cases when you type "reply" in response to a message from Darwin-L your
reply is sent to the group as a whole, rather than to the original sender.

The following are the most frequently used listserv commands that Darwin-L
members may wish to know.  All of these commands should be sent as regular
e-mail messages to the listserv address (listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu),
not to the address of the group as a whole (Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu).
In each case leave the subject line of the message blank and include no
extraneous text, as the command will be read and processed by the listserv
program rather than by a person.  To join the group send the message:

     SUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L <Your Name>

     For example: SUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L John Smith

To cancel your subscription send the message:

     UNSUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L

If you feel burdened by the volume of mail you receive from Darwin-L you
may instruct the listserv program to deliver mail to you in digest format
(one message per day consisting of the whole day's posts bundled together).
To receive your mail in digest format send the message:

     SET DARWIN-L MAIL DIGEST

To change your subscription from digest format back to one-at-a-time
delivery send the message:

     SET DARWIN-L MAIL ACK

To temporarily suspend mail delivery (when you go on vacation, for example)
send the message:

     SET DARWIN-L MAIL POSTPONE

To resume regular delivery send either the DIGEST or ACK messages above.

For a comprehensive introduction to Darwin-L with notes on our scope and
on network etiquette, and a summary of all available commands, send the
message:

     INFO DARWIN-L

To post a public message to the group as a whole simply send it as regular
e-mail to the group's address (Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu).

I thank you all for your continuing interest in Darwin-L and in the
interdisciplinary study of the historical sciences.

Bob O'Hara, Darwin-L list owner

Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu)
Center for Critical Inquiry and Department of Biology
100 Foust Building, University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:2>From ferragu@imiucca.csi.unimi.it  Fri Feb  3 09:20:38 1995

From: Ferraguti Biodip <ferragu@imiucca.csi.unimi.it>
Subject: help
To: Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 16:19:20 MET

Dear friends,
I have been asked by a student to supply references
on the theme "Lamarck and fossils" or, more specially
on the Hydrogeologie. Any suggestions? Thank you very
much

Marco Ferraguti                         Tel.:   (02) 266.04.465
Dipartimento di Biologia
Sezione di Zoologia e Citologia         Fax.:   (02) 266.04.462
via Celoria 26
20133 Milano (Italy)                    E-mail: ferragu@imiucca.csi.unimi.it

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:3>From elanier@crl.nmsu.edu  Tue Feb  7 21:49:19 1995

Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:49:12 -0700
From: elanier@crl.nmsu.edu (Ellery Lanier)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: somatotyping

Apropos Creationism-a new entry to tabloid publishing: The New York
Times Magazine. On Jan 15, 95, the cover story BLAZED with <EXPOSE1
A Bizarre Ritual!--Were top schools duped by cunning pseudo-scientists?>
There was even an irrelevant picture of Hillary Clinton. If science has
media friends like this who needs enemies?
One of the pseudo-scientists (not named) happens to be S.S. Stevens, who
collaborated with W.H.Sheldon in developing the somatotype concept.
Excruciatingly accurate analysis of thousands of body photos were used.
Needle point dividers were applied to enlarged photos along 17 body diameters.
diameters. The method was reminiscent of Mendeleef's procedure when he
discovered the Periodic System. I stronglu suggest that anyone not familiar
with the work of S.S.Stevens check him out.
Shortly before his death W.H.Sheldon sent me a set of tables developed by
Stevens that make it possible to establish body type to a half point
accuracy over a range of some 4000 male and female types. By using a simple
interpolation technique, photos become unnecessary. Results have been
surprisingly accurate. Measures of behavior have also correlated highly
with the Stevens data.
Another so-called pseudo-scientist would have to be J.M. Tanner who used the
sheldon method to type Olympic champions. He refers to Sheldon's method as
"eminently practical".
Sheldon was a Darwinian. He even suggested that further research in
endocrinology might alter or even cancel out his theories.
On the negative side, Sheldon could rub people the wrong way. His writing
sometimes projected an exasperating sardonic humor. Many resented his
comparison of humans to different animal species. He even claimed Sigmund
Freud as a late convert to his ideas! (He did know Freud for whom he had a
deep respect so his claim could be true).
As to the current IQ debate, the high forehead of Greek statues was meant to
denote high intelligence. Sheldon investigated and found only a faint and
hardly significant correlation. (Again the media. After the Times story,
an AP release stated that Sheldon claimed a high correlation between
body-type and intelligence).
What was nice about the Times article was that it mentioned me and even gave
me a label: ARTICULATE. It even misquoted me. That is an honor.
I had my moment of fame. Wow!
Ellery Lanier    elanier@crl.nmsu.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:4>From staddon@psych.duke.edu  Thu Feb  9 07:12:49 1995

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 08:12:34 EST
From: staddon@psych.duke.edu (John Staddon)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  somatotyping

Apropos Ellery Lanier's posting: I'm glad I am not the only one to spot this
tabloid-hyped NYT story as a fraud.  I recently gave a talk here on "The Ethics
of 'The Bell Curve'" and used the somatotype story as an example of how even
completely unexceptionable research on human differences has become a target of
opprobrium.  There was not one criticism of substance in the NYT article, as
far as I could see.  I'm not a particular fan of Sheldon's scheme (I do
remember that Smitty Stevens was, however), but it is certainly a reasonable
thing to try and the Times' attack on it was disgraceful.

John Staddon

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:5>From JMARKS@YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 10 06:18:11 1995

Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 07:06:41 EST
From: jon Marks <JMARKS@YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu>
Organization: Yale University
Subject: Re:  somatotyping
To: Multiple recipients of list <darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>

It probably does bear mentioning that the posture photos were taken
coercively, students were generally not told they were part of a scientific
study, and that the Sheldon-Hooton framework was archaic.  As the Times
reporter learned (correctly) from Prof Hersey, Hooton and Sheldon were
fundamentally interested in discerning a relationship between what you look
like and what's in your head.  Though the study of the human body by physical
anthropologists has indeed had benign and beneficial uses, Hooton and Sheldon
were fundamentally coming to it archaically.  Hooton's study on the American
Criminal Volume I (Harvard U P, 1939) for example, was so poorly received that
Volumes 2 and 3 never came out.
     So there are two issues here.  First, the relationship between body form
and personality, which was largely assumed; and second, contemporary ideas
about scientific ethics and informed consent.

          --Jon Marks

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:6>From JMARKS@YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 10 07:51:17 1995

Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 08:47:28 EST
From: Jon Marks <JMARKS@YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu>
Organization: Yale University
Subject: Clarification
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Let me clarify something in my previous message.  Of course, there is a
relationship between what people look like and the thoughts they have.  What
Hooton and Sheldon maintained is that there was a specifically *causal*
relationship, in which what you look like determines what/how you think.

       --Jon Marks

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:7>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU  Sat Feb 11 11:13:04 1995

From: "Terrall, Mary     HISTORY" <Terrall@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu>
To: hineline <hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: call for papers
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 95 10:06:00 PST
Sender: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU

                   WEST COAST HISTORY OF SCIENCE SOCIETY

                              CALL FOR PAPERS

The 1995 annual meeting of the West Coast History of Science
Society will be held on April 28-29 on the campus of UC San Diego
in La Jolla.  We have decided to meet on campus for reasons of
convenience and economy.  We will distribute a list of local
hotels to anyone interested in attending and leave participants
to make their own arrangements for accommodations.  Mark
Hineline, new secretary/treasurer of the organization, has
generously agreed to be in charge of local arrangements.  Mary
Terrall, as president-elect, is in charge of the program.

As most of you know, the program traditionally mixes talks by
graduate students and faculty members.  The meeting is a friendly
forum where graduate students can present their work and a way
for more senior people to let their colleagues know what they
have been up to.  So anyone with the germ of a paper topic,
please send it on to the program organizer.  Talks should be
planned as 20-minute presentations.  Deadline for submission of
titles is March 20, but earlier contact is encouraged.  If you
would like to put together a session of related papers, you can
do that too.

Submit proposed papers to:

Mary Terrall
2319 Mar Vista Ave.
Altadena, CA  91001
e-mail:  terrall@sscnet.histr.ucla.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:8>From S.A.Rae@open.ac.uk  Tue Feb 14 06:04:37 1995

Date: 14 Feb 1995 12:01:06 +0000
From: "S.A.Rae (Simon Rae)" <S.A.Rae@open.ac.uk>
Subject: Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein"
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

I have been asked by a colleague here at the Open University to post this ...

Please reply to either me at:
   s.a.rae@open.ac.uk
or directly to Tony at the BBC.

Thanking you in anticipation
Simon Rae - The Open University, UK


FROM TONY COE, BBC-Open University Production Centre, United Kingdom
<TonyC@oupc.bbc.co.uk>

I am working on a documentary programme on Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein".

One of the areas I am particularly interested in is to try and find
contemporary scientific analogies for the scientific situation that Mary
Shelley places Victor Frankenstein in when he produces his creature. What are
the modern parallels in the contemporary scientific world? I am particularly
interested in scientific areas that are visually stimulating/interesting;
images and pictures on the processes of artificial creation; things to film
that could be analogous to the Frankenstein situation. The situation that
Victor Frankenstein finds himself in is both seductive (the aim of
creating/generating life) but also threatening (producing or generating a
creature with the capacity to be bigger, better, faster and more destructive
than its creator).

In my rudimentary investigations into this field, I have looked at the ways in
which de bugging programs are visualized as Starwing Fighter games - a sort of
mind-mapping exercise that could be seen as analogous to Mary Shelley's use of
imagined extreme landscapes in the novel. I am also looking at the idea that in
both spirit and style, a recent film like Terminator 2 is closer to the
tradition that Mary Shelley was part of than all the costume Frankenstein films
that we have seen.

Finally, for the time being, the other crucial area of the novel is that of the
ethics or morality of scientific investigations etc. Victor pays no attention
to this until it's too late of course, the same could be said of those who
invented the atom bomb. Is anyone aware that in general this situation is now
different in the scientific community at large, or is it still a mad rush to be
the first, to discover, generate etc without concern for the consequences
afterwards?

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I would be grateful for replies
to be sent to me:

   TonyC@oupc.bbc.co.uk

Tony Coe, BBC-Open University Production Centre, United Kingdom

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:9>From staddon@psych.duke.edu  Tue Feb 14 07:56:00 1995

Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:55:57 EST
From: staddon@psych.duke.edu (John Staddon)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  somatotyping

To Jon Marks:  A colleague of mine whose wife had one of those posture
photos taken is of the opinion that the posture photos began quite
independently of Sheldon and were merely made available to him --but the
system of taking photos was already in place.  That was also my impression.
If so, he cannot be held responsible for the coercion -- which was in any
case much commoner then than now (students did what they were told!). John S.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:10>From sturkel@acl.nyit.edu  Tue Feb 14 10:12:05 1995

Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:01:29 -0500
From: sturkel@acl.nyit.edu
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Clarification

Jon Marks makes a very good point in distinguishing between the
manner in which the research was conducted and the actual goals
of the research.

On both these issues, however, there appears to have been a very
good match between Sheldon and the colleges.  Many of the colleges
had already been collecting data on their freshman.  There is no
indication from the Times article that students had a right to opt
out of either the study or of the extra research data collection.

I firmly believe that there was a underlying racist agenda in many of
these body typing studies, and that this agenda dovetailed with similar
beliefs held by the cooperating, usually elitist, colleges.

The author of the Times article presented a very negative view of the
research, but gloss over the roles of the colleges.  He seemed to imply
that the colleges were sold a bill of goods, but it may have been a more
mutual relationship.

spencer turkel
nyit
sturkel@cosy.nyit.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:11>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU  Tue Feb 14 10:24:41 1995

From: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU (Mark Hineline)
Subject: Phenology
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 8:24:36 PST

Perhaps someone on the list is familiar with phenology, the study of
seasonal change -- either as currently practiced or its history. If
so, would you drop me a note at hineline@helix.ucsd.edu? Thanks much,
in advance.

Mark L. Hineline

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:12>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU  Tue Feb 14 14:33:10 1995

From: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU (Mark Hineline)
Subject: Re: call for papers
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 12:33:04 PST

In the call for papers for the West Coast History of Science Society,
the fields for Mary Terrall's e-mail address were reversed. Her
correct address is

Terrall@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:13>From schoenem@qal.berkeley.edu  Tue Feb 14 14:53:51 1995

Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:44:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Schoenemann <schoenem@qal.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Clarification
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Jon Marks wrote:

> Let me clarify something in my previous message.  Of course, there is a
> relationship between what people look like and the thoughts they have.  What
> Hooton and Sheldon maintained is that there was a specifically *causal*
> relationship, in which what you look like determines what/how you think.
>
>        --Jon Marks

What Jon Marks means to say is that if there is a relationship then we
don't know the specifics of the causal relationship.  If there is a
statistically significant correlation between two variables, there is
necessarily some causal relationship (with a probability of error less than
the significance level), though it might be the reverse of what we might
think (e.g., what we know determines what we look like) or both variables
might be causally connected to a third (fourth, fifth, etc.) variable
(e.g., what we think and what we look like are both influenced by
socio-economic status, etc.).

Assuming Marks is correct that there is a relationship, the interesting
question then becomes "What is the nature of the causal relationship
connecting these variables?"

P. Tom Schoenemann
Department of Anthropology
University of California, Berkeley
(schoenem@qal.berkeley.edu)

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:14>From straker@unixg.ubc.ca  Thu Feb 16 21:29:12 1995

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:30:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Straker <straker@unixg.ubc.ca>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Clarification

> What Jon Marks means to say is that if there is a relationship then we
> don't know the specifics of the causal relationship.  If there is a
> statistically significant correlation between two variables, there is
> necessarily some causal relationship (with a probability of error less than
> the significance level), though it might be the reverse of what we might
> think (e.g., what we know determines what we look like) or both variables
> might be causally connected to a third (fourth, fifth, etc.) variable
         [ISOLATED FOR EMPHASIS]
> (e.g., what we think and what we look like are both influenced by
> socio-economic status, etc.).
>
> Assuming Marks is correct that there is a relationship, the interesting
> question then becomes "What is the nature of the causal relationship
> connecting these variables?"
>
> P. Tom Schoenemann
> Department of Anthropology
> University of California, Berkeley
> (schoenem@qal.berkeley.edu)

The tricky part is  "third (fourth, fifth, etc)..."  !!

For indeed, to say on the basis of statistical correlations ALONE that you
KNOW which are the relevant CAUSAL agents -- that, e.g., it is the 6th and
not the 76th (which you haven't THOUGHT OF yet!) -- is to have performed a
miraculous act -- an infinite recursion in finite time.

Suppose that the suicide rate in higher (per capita) in Los Angeles than
many other places.  Why?  So off we go on the search for
Los-Angeles-variables that will "explain" the correlation.  But what if it
isn't particularly anything about Los Angeles at all, except that, let us
say, people who are going to kill themselves go to Los Angeles first?
Will you ever discover this with correlations?  Maybe, but what you will
be discovering, and indeed be LOOKING FOR, is CASE STUDIES, CAUSAL
STORIES, which will give MEANING to the various correlations.  Correlated
variables BY THEMSELVES tell you nothing except that they are correlated.
WHY is completely another question.

Is this not so?

Stephen Straker  <straker@unixg.ubc.ca>
History
UBC
Vancouver, Canada

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:15>From gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu  Fri Feb 17 20:17:24 1995

From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G)   ANTHRO" <gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu>
To: HUMBIO-L           submissions <humbio-l@acc.fau.edu>,
        DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: the stories apes tell...
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 18:17:00 PST

I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas.  If
anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it.  I'm looking
for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes
(their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society
for Literature and Science.  Many thanks...
Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:16>From g-cziko@uiuc.edu  Mon Feb 20 10:27:39 1995

Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 21:28:33 -0600
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: g-cziko@uiuc.edu (CZIKO Gary)
Subject: Popper Conference, March 11, London

                ANNUAL POPPER CONFERENCE

                   11th March, 1995

                   The Old Theater
      London School of Economics and Political Science
      Houghton St. WC2A 2AE (just off the Aldwych)

             Chair: Dr. Ray Scott Percival
             Vice-Chair: Dr. Jan Lester

10:30 am   Registration and Coffee

11:00 am   Prof. Dr. Guenter Waechtershaeuser
           (Munich & Univ. Regensburg)
           "Intertheoretical Criticism without Universal
            Statements: An Example from Chemistry"

Noon       Dr. Mark A. Notturno
           (Central European University, Budapest)
           "The Meaning of World 3: Or Why Wittgenstein Walked Out."

1:00 pm    Lunch

2.30 pm    Dr. Paul Levinson
           (The New School for Social Research, New York)
           "Knowledge on the Internet: Possibilities for Communication,
            Criticism, and the Divestiture of Entropy"

3.30 pm    Prof. Fred Eidlin
           (University of Guelph, Ontario)
           "The Blind Spot of a Liberal:
            Popper and the Problem of Community"

4.30 pm    Prof. Vadim Sadovsky
           (Institute for Systems Analysis, Moscow)
           "The Impact of Popper's Thought in Russia"

5.30 pm    Panel Discussion

6.30 pm    Drinks Reception:  Wine

The Conference is open to all interested people. There is a registration
fee of L6 in advance, L8 on the door (L6 for students).  Participants
will need to make their own arrangements for lunch. Many restaurants can
be found along the Strand and at Covent Garden, only 5 minutes away.

If you would like to book in advance please write, enclosing a cheque for
L6, made payable to the organiser: Dr. Ray Scott Percival, 70 Hillview
Court, Astley Bridge, Bolton BL1 8NU (Telephone: 01204-593114). Please
enclose a stamped addressed envelope if you would like an acknowledgement.

Send e-mail queries to PLevinson@cinti.com

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:17>From michaels@scifac.su.oz.au  Mon Feb 20 10:37:23 1995

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 03:08:30 +0000
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: michaels@SciFac.su.OZ.AU
Subject: GIVING AND TAKING THE PISS

It's well known that urine has been used in medical practice both as an
internal agent and as an external cleanser for wounds, ulcers, etc. 'Well
known', but I seek references to urine's use as an external cleanser,
particularly in the early 19th century (but any references would be usefu).

All help will be acknowledged.

Thanks

Michael Shortland

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Shortland                      Email :  michaels@scifac.su.oz.au
Unit for the History and
Philosophy of Science F07    _--_|\
University of Sydney       /       \
Sydney NSW 2006            \_.--._ /*
Australia
                                         Fax   : 02 351 4124
                                         Tel   : 02 351 4801
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:18>From U24917@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU  Mon Feb 20 18:42:38 1995

Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 07:37:01 -0600 (CST)
From: @KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU:U24917@UICVM.BITNET
Subject: Congruence between Linguistic Diversity and Genetic Diversity
To: DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hello,
     Does anyone have information and/or ideas on appropriate way(s)
to evaluate congrucence between linguistic diversity and genetic
diversity within a human population?  References to the literature
would be especially helpful for me.
                                   Thanks in advance,
                                   Pamela Stewart
                                   E:mail - U24917@UICVM.UIC.EDU

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<18:19>From cjcoker@csupomona.edu  Tue Feb 21 10:19:46 1995

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 08:19:12 PST
From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" <cjcoker@csupomona.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: GIVING AND TAKING THE PISS

> It's well known that urine has been used in medical practice both as an
> internal agent and as an external cleanser for wounds, ulcers, etc. 'Well
> known', but I seek references to urine's use as an external cleanser,
> particularly in the early 19th century (but any references would be usefu).

It is also very useful in hostile weather conditions (e.g., in the snow,
40 below zero) when doing search-and-rescue work and you find someone
who touched bare metal with a wet hand.  (You get instantly stuck to the
metal object.)  A quick piss on the hand, and it "unglues" itself from the
metal.  (It also makes the victim agonize over being grateful for the rescue,
or being mad about the method used.  :-))

Chuck Coker
CJCoker@CSUPomona.Edu

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<18:20>From idavidso@metz.une.edu.au  Tue Feb 21 15:16:50 1995

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:16:47 +1100
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: idavidso@metz.une.edu.au (Iain Davidson)
Subject: Re: the stories apes tell...

>I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas.  If
>anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it.  I'm looking
>for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes
>(their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society
>for Literature and Science.  Many thanks...
>Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA

Folks on the Primate-Talk group seem to know this stuff.  Give your request
a try.

Iain Davidson
Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale NSW 2351
AUSTRALIA
Tel (067) 732 441
Fax      (International) +61 67 73 25 26
                (Domestic)       067 73 25 26

You can send me complex messages (graphics) or long ones (if you want to)
if you use Eudora and attach them as documents.  My system uses Eudora and
should be able to cope.

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<18:21>From diomeyer@cat.cce.usp.br  Wed Feb 22 09:18:54 1995

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:19:25 -0300 (EST)
From: Diogo Meyer <diomeyer@cat.cce.usp.br>
Subject: Congruence between Linguistic Diversity and Genetic Diversity
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

> Hello,
> Does anyone have information and/or ideas on appropriate way(s)
> to evaluate congruence between linguistic diversity and genetic
> diversity within a human population?  References to the literature
> would be especially helpful for me.
>                                   Thanks in advance,
>                                  Pamela Stewart
>                                 E:mail - U24917@UICVM.UIC.EDU

Cavalli et al. attempted to relate languages and genes in the paper:

Cavalli-Sforza, L. L., A. Piazza, P. Menozzi, and J. Mountain. 1988.
Reconstruction of human evolution: bringing together, genetic,
archaeological and linguistic data. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 85:6002-
6006.

This was criticized by Bateman et al., largely because of methodological
issues:

Bateman, R. M., I. Goddard, R. T. O'Grady, V. A. Funk, R. Mooi, W.
J. Kress, and P. F. Cannell. 1990. Speaking of forked tongues: the
feasibility of reconciling human phylogeny and the history of language.
Curr. Anthrop. 31:1-13.

Cavalli et al. (1992) carried out a statistical evalaution of the
congruence between language and gene trees and concluded that the
similarities are greater than would be expected by chance alone:

Cavalli-Sforza, L. L., E. Minch, and J. Mountain. 1992. Coevolution of
genes and languages revisited. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 89:5620-
5624.

More recently Penny et al. have used "tree comparisson metrics", tools
designed to campare and quantify the differences in topology between
trees, and concluded that the gene and language trees can be considered
similar.

Penny, D., E. E. Watson, and M. A. Steel. 1993. Trees from languages
and genes are very similar. Syst. Biol. 42:382-384.

Nei and Roychoudhury have argued that the genetic tree obtained by
Cavalli presents flaws. If this is correct, then the previous comparisons
between gene trees and language trees must be re-evaluated:

Nei, M., and A. K. Roychoudhury. 1993. Evolutionary relationships of
human populations on a global scale. Mol. Biol. Evol. 10:927-943.

Hope this is useful,
Diogo Meyer

******************************************
Diogo Meyer
Dept. Biologia, Instituto de Biociencias
Universidade de Sao Paulo
Caixa Postal 11461
CEP 05422-970 Sao Paulo Brazil
diomeyer@cat.cce.usp.br
FAX +55 (11) 852 6298
tel +55 (11) 887 3831
******************************************

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<18:22>From jel@christa.unh.edu  Thu Feb 23 09:13:50 1995

Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:13:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John E Limber <jel@christa.unh.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: the stories apes tell...

Why bother with Patterson?  Why not go directly to the --so to
speak--horse's mouth and get Koko herself to sign on the topic of ape
oral traditions?  I'm sure you could get a signing "communication
facilitator" to help out!

John Limber
Department of Psychology
University of New Hampshire, Durham NH 03824, USA
email: jel@christa.unh.edu

>I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas.  If
>anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it.  I'm looking
>for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes
>(their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society
>for Literature and Science.  Many thanks...
>Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA

_______________________________________________________________________________

<18:23>From sarich@QAL.Berkeley.EDU  Thu Feb 23 11:38:30 1995

From: Prof Vince Sarich <sarich@qal.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:40:15 -0800
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Adam's rib

Some thoughts on the following:

From: MARQUISA LAVELLE <HJW101@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Creationism creeps up in the least expected places
20 Feb 1995 07:55:05 -0800 (PST) from <ncse@crl.com>
To: "Adam's Rib" <humbio-l@fauvax.BITNET>
Reply-to: humbio-l@ACC.FAU.EDU

Eugenie:  The results of a three year survey (notecards) of introductory
Human Evolution Students on the number of ribs among men and women are
that approximately 45% of university freshmen and sophomores that take
this course believe that males have an extra set of ribs!  When I ask
students why they think this, they quote Genesis, however they are
unable to explain why males have more rather than less, as should be the
case from a literal reading of these passages.  My guess is that it is
hard to attribute males having less but they strongly believe in funda-
mental differences.  HOWEVER, when queried about communal living with
dinosaurs they pooh-pooh this idea as "naive."  Go Figure!  Marquisa

-----------------------

The appearance of the above on my screen this morning reminded me of the only
apparently original idea I've ever had.  Some years ago now, I was working in
the lab late one Friday afternoon and two of our graduate students came in.
They had just been at a Zoology Dep't seminar and one of them asked me --
apropos of what I do not remember -- "why don't human males have a baculum?"
(A baculum, by the way, is a penis bone, and is present in most male primates,
bats, carnivores, rodents, and, I think, a few insectivores.)

My off-the-top-of-my-head, never missed a beat response, was: "because God
made Eve out of it." Walking home that evening and thinking about the episode,
I said to myself, "that was pretty clever" and then typed out the story for
Alan Dundes, our resident folklorist -- who eventually published as part of an
article on the couvade (don't ask).

It's also made a good Anthro 1 story over the years.  How seriously to take
it?  I still don't know.  The points here are several. The first is that human
males are in fact missing a bone -- not a rib, true, but a bone nonetheless. So
I wonder if the rib story could be some kind of ancient bowlderization?  Next
is the fact of the extreme suspiciousness of women exhibited by the religions
of the area. How better to justify this than by accusing them of having, in
effect, stolen a significant portion of our manhood. Then there are the facts
that human art often characterizes hunting animals as males, and the hunted as
females; that of course human males do virtually all the hunting in our
species; and, finally, that among all the hunters, only human males are missing
a baculum.

So I ask:

(1) Is there a pre-Berkeley source for this story?

(2) Is there a precursor to the Adam's rib story in pre-biblical writings?

(3) Are there other published attempts at explaining the Adam's rib story?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Vincent Sarich

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<18:24>From gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu  Sun Feb 26 17:34:32 1995

From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G)   ANTHRO" <gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu>
To: DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: thanks re stories apes tell
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 15:35:00 PST

Thanks to all of your who directed me to Patterson.  I've been in touch with
Penny Patterson, and we're looking forward to a talk on Gorilla gestural
language in November at UCLA.

To Iain Davidson - could you supply more information on the Primate-Talk
group?  Should all communications go through you?

To John Limber - I asked, and Koko has other engagements.  It seems that
Koko doesn't like academic gatherings.

Nick Gessler
UCLA Anthropology

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<18:25>From rog@cns.brown.edu  Sun Feb 26 17:34:41 1995

From: rog@cns.brown.edu (Roger B. Blumberg)
Subject: MendelWeb
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 18:27:39 -0500 (EST)

As some of you know, MendelWeb is a electronic educational resource
for the World Wide Web, built upon Gregor Mendel's famous pea plant
paper of 1865. MendelWeb has not been officially announced, and is
still under construction; but, the first strands can be found at
http://www.netspace.org/MendelWeb/.

In a few weeks I will add a collaborative hypertext to MendelWeb, that
will allow readers to contribute annotations to both English and
German versions of Mendel's paper, and the resulting text will be
available for all users to read. In the meantime, I am asking several
sceintists and writers to take a look at the paper(s), and to consider
contributing the first comments and annotations. As I know that some
members of this list are quite interested in Mendel, and may be
effective teachers of his work (and perhaps his paper), I am inviting
interested members to consider contributing something to the
collaborative text(s). They can be found at
http://www.netspace.org/MendelWeb/CollText/

The collaborative hypertexts will eventually be linked to the rest of
MendelWeb, and will be available (for reading and writing) to all
users. But for the moment, and until I can get some initial
(exemplary?) commentary, I ask that you please NOT announce the
existence of this text in your class(es), or forward this message to
other lists. On the other hand, if you know of particular people you
think would make important contributions to the collaborative Mendel,
feel free to pass this information along.

If you have any questions about MendelWeb or participating in the
collaborative project, please don't hesistate to e-mail me.

Thanks for your attention.

Sincerely,

Roger

        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                           Roger B. Blumberg
                Institute for Brain & Neural Systems
                Department of Physics, Brown University
                rog@cns.brown.edu       401-863-3920
        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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<18:26>From gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu  Sun Feb 26 17:56:03 1995

From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G)   ANTHRO" <gessler@anthro.sscnet.ucla.edu>
To: DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: giving/taking the piss
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 15:56:00 PST

Using urine to cleanse wounds has been part of military field knowledge.  You
might try looking at some emergency medical field manuals.  Better yet,
contact someone in charge of such training at a military base.  Let us know
what you find...
Nick Gessler, Anthropology UCLA

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<18:27>From bcorner@Natick-EMH2.Army.Mil  Mon Feb 27 08:06:23 1995

Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 8:51:57 EST
From: Brian Corner x <bcorner@Natick-EMH2.Army.Mil>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  giving/taking the piss

I just spoke to some friends here who are familiar with most of the
Army medical lore and they didn't recall any training regarding
using urine to clean wounds.  Obviously, you could use urine if
there was no other liquid available and the wound was particularly
dirty.  But, urine is not ideal as it is not equivalent to a sterile
saline solution for example.  Just about any chemical/micro
organism in the body may at one time or another be present in urine.
Food for thought next time you have to pee in a cup for a drug
screening.

*************************************************************
 Brian Corner                  *  GEO-CENTERS, INC
 bcorner@natick-emh2.army.mil  *  190 N. Main St.
 508.651.3501 (voice)          *  Natick, MA 01760
 508.651.0229 (FAX)            *
*************************************************************
 In recent decades anthropometry has declined, except for
 applied anthropology.  Instead of measuring the bodies of
 the last remants of aboriginal populations, anthropometrists
 measure military personnel and civilians in order to design
 railroad and airplane seats and space suits.  Doctors of
 Philosophy have become tailors to the new age of science.

 C. Coon "The Origin of Races"
***************************************************************

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Darwin-L Message Log 18: 1-27 -- February 1995                              End

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