Darwin-L Message Log 18: 1–27 — February 1995
Academic Discussion on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences
Darwin-L was an international discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences, active from 1993–1997. Darwin-L was established to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among scholars, scientists, and researchers in these fields. The group had more than 600 members from 35 countries, and produced a consistently high level of discussion over its several years of operation. Darwin-L was not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin, but instead addressed the entire range of historical sciences from an explicitly comparative perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical geography, historical anthropology, and related “palaetiological” fields.
This log contains public messages posted to the Darwin-L discussion group during February 1995. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.
The master copy of this log is maintained in the Darwin-L Archives (rjohara.net/darwin) by Dr. Robert J. O’Hara. The Darwin-L Archives also contain additional information about the Darwin-L discussion group, the complete Today in the Historical Sciences calendar for every month of the year, a collection of recommended readings on the historical sciences, and an account of William Whewell’s concept of “palaetiology.”
---------------------------------------------- DARWIN-L MESSAGE LOG 18: 1-27 -- FEBRUARY 1995 ---------------------------------------------- DARWIN-L A Network Discussion Group on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu is an international network discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences. Darwin-L was established in September 1993 to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among academic professionals in these fields. Darwin-L is not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin but instead addresses the entire range of historical sciences from an interdisciplinary perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical anthropology, historical geography, and related "palaetiological" fields. This log contains the public messages posted to Darwin-L during February 1995. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and some administrative messages and personal messages posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster. The master copy of this log is maintained in the archives of Darwin-L by firstname.lastname@example.org, and is also available on the Darwin-L gopher at rjohara.uncg.edu. For instructions on how to retrieve copies of this and other log files, and for additional information about Darwin-L, send the e-mail message INFO DARWIN-L to email@example.com, or connect to the Darwin-L gopher at rjohara.uncg.edu. Darwin-L is administered by Robert J. O'Hara (firstname.lastname@example.org), Center for Critical Inquiry in the Liberal Arts and Department of Biology, University of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A., and it is supported by the Center for Critical Inquiry, University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and the Department of History and the Academic Computing Center, University of Kansas. _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:1>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu Wed Feb 1 00:27:45 1995 Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 01:27:39 -0400 (EDT) From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu Subject: List owner's monthly greeting To: email@example.com Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Greetings to all Darwin-L subscribers. On the first of every month I send out a short note on the status of our group, along with a reminder of basic commands. Darwin-L is an international discussion group for professionals in the historical sciences. It is not devoted to any particular discipline, such as evolutionary biology, but rather endeavors to promote interdisciplinary comparisons among all the historical sciences. Darwin-L was established in September 1993, and we now have over 600 members from more than 30 countries. I am grateful to all of our members for their continuing interest and their many contributions. Darwin-L is occasionally a "high-volume" discussion group. Subscribers who feel burdened from time to time by their Darwin-L mail may wish to take advantage of the digest option described below. Because different mail systems work differently, not all subscribers can see the e-mail address of the original sender of each message in the message header (some people only see "Darwin-L" as the source). Please include your name and e-mail address at the end of every message you post so that everyone can identify you and reply privately if appropriate. Remember also that in most cases when you type "reply" in response to a message from Darwin-L your reply is sent to the group as a whole, rather than to the original sender. The following are the most frequently used listserv commands that Darwin-L members may wish to know. All of these commands should be sent as regular e-mail messages to the listserv address (firstname.lastname@example.org), not to the address of the group as a whole (Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu). In each case leave the subject line of the message blank and include no extraneous text, as the command will be read and processed by the listserv program rather than by a person. To join the group send the message: SUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L <Your Name> For example: SUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L John Smith To cancel your subscription send the message: UNSUBSCRIBE DARWIN-L If you feel burdened by the volume of mail you receive from Darwin-L you may instruct the listserv program to deliver mail to you in digest format (one message per day consisting of the whole day's posts bundled together). To receive your mail in digest format send the message: SET DARWIN-L MAIL DIGEST To change your subscription from digest format back to one-at-a-time delivery send the message: SET DARWIN-L MAIL ACK To temporarily suspend mail delivery (when you go on vacation, for example) send the message: SET DARWIN-L MAIL POSTPONE To resume regular delivery send either the DIGEST or ACK messages above. For a comprehensive introduction to Darwin-L with notes on our scope and on network etiquette, and a summary of all available commands, send the message: INFO DARWIN-L To post a public message to the group as a whole simply send it as regular e-mail to the group's address (Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu). I thank you all for your continuing interest in Darwin-L and in the interdisciplinary study of the historical sciences. Bob O'Hara, Darwin-L list owner Robert J. O'Hara (email@example.com) Center for Critical Inquiry and Department of Biology 100 Foust Building, University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A. _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:2>From firstname.lastname@example.org Fri Feb 3 09:20:38 1995 From: Ferraguti Biodip <email@example.com> Subject: help To: Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 16:19:20 MET Dear friends, I have been asked by a student to supply references on the theme "Lamarck and fossils" or, more specially on the Hydrogeologie. Any suggestions? Thank you very much Marco Ferraguti Tel.: (02) 266.04.465 Dipartimento di Biologia Sezione di Zoologia e Citologia Fax.: (02) 266.04.462 via Celoria 26 20133 Milano (Italy) E-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:3>From email@example.com Tue Feb 7 21:49:19 1995 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:49:12 -0700 From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Ellery Lanier) To: email@example.com Subject: somatotyping Apropos Creationism-a new entry to tabloid publishing: The New York Times Magazine. On Jan 15, 95, the cover story BLAZED with <EXPOSE1 A Bizarre Ritual!--Were top schools duped by cunning pseudo-scientists?> There was even an irrelevant picture of Hillary Clinton. If science has media friends like this who needs enemies? One of the pseudo-scientists (not named) happens to be S.S. Stevens, who collaborated with W.H.Sheldon in developing the somatotype concept. Excruciatingly accurate analysis of thousands of body photos were used. Needle point dividers were applied to enlarged photos along 17 body diameters. diameters. The method was reminiscent of Mendeleef's procedure when he discovered the Periodic System. I stronglu suggest that anyone not familiar with the work of S.S.Stevens check him out. Shortly before his death W.H.Sheldon sent me a set of tables developed by Stevens that make it possible to establish body type to a half point accuracy over a range of some 4000 male and female types. By using a simple interpolation technique, photos become unnecessary. Results have been surprisingly accurate. Measures of behavior have also correlated highly with the Stevens data. Another so-called pseudo-scientist would have to be J.M. Tanner who used the sheldon method to type Olympic champions. He refers to Sheldon's method as "eminently practical". Sheldon was a Darwinian. He even suggested that further research in endocrinology might alter or even cancel out his theories. On the negative side, Sheldon could rub people the wrong way. His writing sometimes projected an exasperating sardonic humor. Many resented his comparison of humans to different animal species. He even claimed Sigmund Freud as a late convert to his ideas! (He did know Freud for whom he had a deep respect so his claim could be true). As to the current IQ debate, the high forehead of Greek statues was meant to denote high intelligence. Sheldon investigated and found only a faint and hardly significant correlation. (Again the media. After the Times story, an AP release stated that Sheldon claimed a high correlation between body-type and intelligence). What was nice about the Times article was that it mentioned me and even gave me a label: ARTICULATE. It even misquoted me. That is an honor. I had my moment of fame. Wow! Ellery Lanier firstname.lastname@example.org _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:4>From email@example.com Thu Feb 9 07:12:49 1995 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 08:12:34 EST From: firstname.lastname@example.org (John Staddon) To: email@example.com Subject: Re: somatotyping Apropos Ellery Lanier's posting: I'm glad I am not the only one to spot this tabloid-hyped NYT story as a fraud. I recently gave a talk here on "The Ethics of 'The Bell Curve'" and used the somatotype story as an example of how even completely unexceptionable research on human differences has become a target of opprobrium. There was not one criticism of substance in the NYT article, as far as I could see. I'm not a particular fan of Sheldon's scheme (I do remember that Smitty Stevens was, however), but it is certainly a reasonable thing to try and the Times' attack on it was disgraceful. John Staddon _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:5>From JMARKS@YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Fri Feb 10 06:18:11 1995 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 07:06:41 EST From: jon Marks <JMARKS@YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu> Organization: Yale University Subject: Re: somatotyping To: Multiple recipients of list <firstname.lastname@example.org> It probably does bear mentioning that the posture photos were taken coercively, students were generally not told they were part of a scientific study, and that the Sheldon-Hooton framework was archaic. As the Times reporter learned (correctly) from Prof Hersey, Hooton and Sheldon were fundamentally interested in discerning a relationship between what you look like and what's in your head. Though the study of the human body by physical anthropologists has indeed had benign and beneficial uses, Hooton and Sheldon were fundamentally coming to it archaically. Hooton's study on the American Criminal Volume I (Harvard U P, 1939) for example, was so poorly received that Volumes 2 and 3 never came out. So there are two issues here. First, the relationship between body form and personality, which was largely assumed; and second, contemporary ideas about scientific ethics and informed consent. --Jon Marks _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:6>From JMARKS@YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Fri Feb 10 07:51:17 1995 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 08:47:28 EST From: Jon Marks <JMARKS@YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu> Organization: Yale University Subject: Clarification To: email@example.com Let me clarify something in my previous message. Of course, there is a relationship between what people look like and the thoughts they have. What Hooton and Sheldon maintained is that there was a specifically *causal* relationship, in which what you look like determines what/how you think. --Jon Marks _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:7>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU Sat Feb 11 11:13:04 1995 From: "Terrall, Mary HISTORY" <Terrall@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu> To: hineline <hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU> Subject: call for papers Date: Sat, 14 Jan 95 10:06:00 PST Sender: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU WEST COAST HISTORY OF SCIENCE SOCIETY CALL FOR PAPERS The 1995 annual meeting of the West Coast History of Science Society will be held on April 28-29 on the campus of UC San Diego in La Jolla. We have decided to meet on campus for reasons of convenience and economy. We will distribute a list of local hotels to anyone interested in attending and leave participants to make their own arrangements for accommodations. Mark Hineline, new secretary/treasurer of the organization, has generously agreed to be in charge of local arrangements. Mary Terrall, as president-elect, is in charge of the program. As most of you know, the program traditionally mixes talks by graduate students and faculty members. The meeting is a friendly forum where graduate students can present their work and a way for more senior people to let their colleagues know what they have been up to. So anyone with the germ of a paper topic, please send it on to the program organizer. Talks should be planned as 20-minute presentations. Deadline for submission of titles is March 20, but earlier contact is encouraged. If you would like to put together a session of related papers, you can do that too. Submit proposed papers to: Mary Terrall 2319 Mar Vista Ave. Altadena, CA 91001 e-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:8>From S.A.Rae@open.ac.uk Tue Feb 14 06:04:37 1995 Date: 14 Feb 1995 12:01:06 +0000 From: "S.A.Rae (Simon Rae)" <S.A.Rae@open.ac.uk> Subject: Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein" To: email@example.com I have been asked by a colleague here at the Open University to post this ... Please reply to either me at: firstname.lastname@example.org or directly to Tony at the BBC. Thanking you in anticipation Simon Rae - The Open University, UK FROM TONY COE, BBC-Open University Production Centre, United Kingdom <TonyC@oupc.bbc.co.uk> I am working on a documentary programme on Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein". One of the areas I am particularly interested in is to try and find contemporary scientific analogies for the scientific situation that Mary Shelley places Victor Frankenstein in when he produces his creature. What are the modern parallels in the contemporary scientific world? I am particularly interested in scientific areas that are visually stimulating/interesting; images and pictures on the processes of artificial creation; things to film that could be analogous to the Frankenstein situation. The situation that Victor Frankenstein finds himself in is both seductive (the aim of creating/generating life) but also threatening (producing or generating a creature with the capacity to be bigger, better, faster and more destructive than its creator). In my rudimentary investigations into this field, I have looked at the ways in which de bugging programs are visualized as Starwing Fighter games - a sort of mind-mapping exercise that could be seen as analogous to Mary Shelley's use of imagined extreme landscapes in the novel. I am also looking at the idea that in both spirit and style, a recent film like Terminator 2 is closer to the tradition that Mary Shelley was part of than all the costume Frankenstein films that we have seen. Finally, for the time being, the other crucial area of the novel is that of the ethics or morality of scientific investigations etc. Victor pays no attention to this until it's too late of course, the same could be said of those who invented the atom bomb. Is anyone aware that in general this situation is now different in the scientific community at large, or is it still a mad rush to be the first, to discover, generate etc without concern for the consequences afterwards? Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I would be grateful for replies to be sent to me: TonyC@oupc.bbc.co.uk Tony Coe, BBC-Open University Production Centre, United Kingdom _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:9>From email@example.com Tue Feb 14 07:56:00 1995 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 08:55:57 EST From: firstname.lastname@example.org (John Staddon) To: email@example.com Subject: Re: somatotyping To Jon Marks: A colleague of mine whose wife had one of those posture photos taken is of the opinion that the posture photos began quite independently of Sheldon and were merely made available to him --but the system of taking photos was already in place. That was also my impression. If so, he cannot be held responsible for the coercion -- which was in any case much commoner then than now (students did what they were told!). John S. _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:10>From firstname.lastname@example.org Tue Feb 14 10:12:05 1995 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:01:29 -0500 From: email@example.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Clarification Jon Marks makes a very good point in distinguishing between the manner in which the research was conducted and the actual goals of the research. On both these issues, however, there appears to have been a very good match between Sheldon and the colleges. Many of the colleges had already been collecting data on their freshman. There is no indication from the Times article that students had a right to opt out of either the study or of the extra research data collection. I firmly believe that there was a underlying racist agenda in many of these body typing studies, and that this agenda dovetailed with similar beliefs held by the cooperating, usually elitist, colleges. The author of the Times article presented a very negative view of the research, but gloss over the roles of the colleges. He seemed to imply that the colleges were sold a bill of goods, but it may have been a more mutual relationship. spencer turkel nyit email@example.com _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:11>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU Tue Feb 14 10:24:41 1995 From: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU (Mark Hineline) Subject: Phenology To: firstname.lastname@example.org Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 8:24:36 PST Perhaps someone on the list is familiar with phenology, the study of seasonal change -- either as currently practiced or its history. If so, would you drop me a note at email@example.com? Thanks much, in advance. Mark L. Hineline _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:12>From hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU Tue Feb 14 14:33:10 1995 From: hineline@helix.UCSD.EDU (Mark Hineline) Subject: Re: call for papers To: firstname.lastname@example.org Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 12:33:04 PST In the call for papers for the West Coast History of Science Society, the fields for Mary Terrall's e-mail address were reversed. Her correct address is Terrall@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:13>From email@example.com Tue Feb 14 14:53:51 1995 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:44:29 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Schoenemann <schoenem@qal.Berkeley.EDU> Subject: Re: Clarification To: firstname.lastname@example.org On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Jon Marks wrote: > Let me clarify something in my previous message. Of course, there is a > relationship between what people look like and the thoughts they have. What > Hooton and Sheldon maintained is that there was a specifically *causal* > relationship, in which what you look like determines what/how you think. > > --Jon Marks What Jon Marks means to say is that if there is a relationship then we don't know the specifics of the causal relationship. If there is a statistically significant correlation between two variables, there is necessarily some causal relationship (with a probability of error less than the significance level), though it might be the reverse of what we might think (e.g., what we know determines what we look like) or both variables might be causally connected to a third (fourth, fifth, etc.) variable (e.g., what we think and what we look like are both influenced by socio-economic status, etc.). Assuming Marks is correct that there is a relationship, the interesting question then becomes "What is the nature of the causal relationship connecting these variables?" P. Tom Schoenemann Department of Anthropology University of California, Berkeley (email@example.com) _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:14>From firstname.lastname@example.org Thu Feb 16 21:29:12 1995 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:30:24 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Straker <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Clarification > What Jon Marks means to say is that if there is a relationship then we > don't know the specifics of the causal relationship. If there is a > statistically significant correlation between two variables, there is > necessarily some causal relationship (with a probability of error less than > the significance level), though it might be the reverse of what we might > think (e.g., what we know determines what we look like) or both variables > might be causally connected to a third (fourth, fifth, etc.) variable [ISOLATED FOR EMPHASIS] > (e.g., what we think and what we look like are both influenced by > socio-economic status, etc.). > > Assuming Marks is correct that there is a relationship, the interesting > question then becomes "What is the nature of the causal relationship > connecting these variables?" > > P. Tom Schoenemann > Department of Anthropology > University of California, Berkeley > (email@example.com) The tricky part is "third (fourth, fifth, etc)..." !! For indeed, to say on the basis of statistical correlations ALONE that you KNOW which are the relevant CAUSAL agents -- that, e.g., it is the 6th and not the 76th (which you haven't THOUGHT OF yet!) -- is to have performed a miraculous act -- an infinite recursion in finite time. Suppose that the suicide rate in higher (per capita) in Los Angeles than many other places. Why? So off we go on the search for Los-Angeles-variables that will "explain" the correlation. But what if it isn't particularly anything about Los Angeles at all, except that, let us say, people who are going to kill themselves go to Los Angeles first? Will you ever discover this with correlations? Maybe, but what you will be discovering, and indeed be LOOKING FOR, is CASE STUDIES, CAUSAL STORIES, which will give MEANING to the various correlations. Correlated variables BY THEMSELVES tell you nothing except that they are correlated. WHY is completely another question. Is this not so? Stephen Straker <firstname.lastname@example.org> History UBC Vancouver, Canada _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:15>From email@example.com Fri Feb 17 20:17:24 1995 From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G) ANTHRO" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: HUMBIO-L submissions <email@example.com>, DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: the stories apes tell... Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 18:17:00 PST I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas. If anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it. I'm looking for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes (their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society for Literature and Science. Many thanks... Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:16>From firstname.lastname@example.org Mon Feb 20 10:27:39 1995 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 21:28:33 -0600 To: email@example.com From: firstname.lastname@example.org (CZIKO Gary) Subject: Popper Conference, March 11, London ANNUAL POPPER CONFERENCE 11th March, 1995 The Old Theater London School of Economics and Political Science Houghton St. WC2A 2AE (just off the Aldwych) Chair: Dr. Ray Scott Percival Vice-Chair: Dr. Jan Lester 10:30 am Registration and Coffee 11:00 am Prof. Dr. Guenter Waechtershaeuser (Munich & Univ. Regensburg) "Intertheoretical Criticism without Universal Statements: An Example from Chemistry" Noon Dr. Mark A. Notturno (Central European University, Budapest) "The Meaning of World 3: Or Why Wittgenstein Walked Out." 1:00 pm Lunch 2.30 pm Dr. Paul Levinson (The New School for Social Research, New York) "Knowledge on the Internet: Possibilities for Communication, Criticism, and the Divestiture of Entropy" 3.30 pm Prof. Fred Eidlin (University of Guelph, Ontario) "The Blind Spot of a Liberal: Popper and the Problem of Community" 4.30 pm Prof. Vadim Sadovsky (Institute for Systems Analysis, Moscow) "The Impact of Popper's Thought in Russia" 5.30 pm Panel Discussion 6.30 pm Drinks Reception: Wine The Conference is open to all interested people. There is a registration fee of L6 in advance, L8 on the door (L6 for students). Participants will need to make their own arrangements for lunch. Many restaurants can be found along the Strand and at Covent Garden, only 5 minutes away. If you would like to book in advance please write, enclosing a cheque for L6, made payable to the organiser: Dr. Ray Scott Percival, 70 Hillview Court, Astley Bridge, Bolton BL1 8NU (Telephone: 01204-593114). Please enclose a stamped addressed envelope if you would like an acknowledgement. Send e-mail queries to PLevinson@cinti.com _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:17>From email@example.com Mon Feb 20 10:37:23 1995 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 03:08:30 +0000 To: firstname.lastname@example.org From: michaels@SciFac.su.OZ.AU Subject: GIVING AND TAKING THE PISS It's well known that urine has been used in medical practice both as an internal agent and as an external cleanser for wounds, ulcers, etc. 'Well known', but I seek references to urine's use as an external cleanser, particularly in the early 19th century (but any references would be usefu). All help will be acknowledged. Thanks Michael Shortland ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Shortland Email : email@example.com Unit for the History and Philosophy of Science F07 _--_|\ University of Sydney / \ Sydney NSW 2006 \_.--._ /* Australia Fax : 02 351 4124 Tel : 02 351 4801 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:18>From U24917@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU Mon Feb 20 18:42:38 1995 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 07:37:01 -0600 (CST) From: @KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU:U24917@UICVM.BITNET Subject: Congruence between Linguistic Diversity and Genetic Diversity To: DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu Hello, Does anyone have information and/or ideas on appropriate way(s) to evaluate congrucence between linguistic diversity and genetic diversity within a human population? References to the literature would be especially helpful for me. Thanks in advance, Pamela Stewart E:mail - U24917@UICVM.UIC.EDU _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:19>From firstname.lastname@example.org Tue Feb 21 10:19:46 1995 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 08:19:12 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: RE: GIVING AND TAKING THE PISS > It's well known that urine has been used in medical practice both as an > internal agent and as an external cleanser for wounds, ulcers, etc. 'Well > known', but I seek references to urine's use as an external cleanser, > particularly in the early 19th century (but any references would be usefu). It is also very useful in hostile weather conditions (e.g., in the snow, 40 below zero) when doing search-and-rescue work and you find someone who touched bare metal with a wet hand. (You get instantly stuck to the metal object.) A quick piss on the hand, and it "unglues" itself from the metal. (It also makes the victim agonize over being grateful for the rescue, or being mad about the method used. :-)) Chuck Coker CJCoker@CSUPomona.Edu _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:20>From email@example.com Tue Feb 21 15:16:50 1995 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:16:47 +1100 To: firstname.lastname@example.org From: email@example.com (Iain Davidson) Subject: Re: the stories apes tell... >I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas. If >anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it. I'm looking >for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes >(their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society >for Literature and Science. Many thanks... >Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA Folks on the Primate-Talk group seem to know this stuff. Give your request a try. Iain Davidson Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology University of New England Armidale NSW 2351 AUSTRALIA Tel (067) 732 441 Fax (International) +61 67 73 25 26 (Domestic) 067 73 25 26 You can send me complex messages (graphics) or long ones (if you want to) if you use Eudora and attach them as documents. My system uses Eudora and should be able to cope. _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:21>From firstname.lastname@example.org Wed Feb 22 09:18:54 1995 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:19:25 -0300 (EST) From: Diogo Meyer <email@example.com> Subject: Congruence between Linguistic Diversity and Genetic Diversity To: firstname.lastname@example.org > Hello, > Does anyone have information and/or ideas on appropriate way(s) > to evaluate congruence between linguistic diversity and genetic > diversity within a human population? References to the literature > would be especially helpful for me. > Thanks in advance, > Pamela Stewart > E:mail - U24917@UICVM.UIC.EDU Cavalli et al. attempted to relate languages and genes in the paper: Cavalli-Sforza, L. L., A. Piazza, P. Menozzi, and J. Mountain. 1988. Reconstruction of human evolution: bringing together, genetic, archaeological and linguistic data. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 85:6002- 6006. This was criticized by Bateman et al., largely because of methodological issues: Bateman, R. M., I. Goddard, R. T. O'Grady, V. A. Funk, R. Mooi, W. J. Kress, and P. F. Cannell. 1990. Speaking of forked tongues: the feasibility of reconciling human phylogeny and the history of language. Curr. Anthrop. 31:1-13. Cavalli et al. (1992) carried out a statistical evalaution of the congruence between language and gene trees and concluded that the similarities are greater than would be expected by chance alone: Cavalli-Sforza, L. L., E. Minch, and J. Mountain. 1992. Coevolution of genes and languages revisited. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 89:5620- 5624. More recently Penny et al. have used "tree comparisson metrics", tools designed to campare and quantify the differences in topology between trees, and concluded that the gene and language trees can be considered similar. Penny, D., E. E. Watson, and M. A. Steel. 1993. Trees from languages and genes are very similar. Syst. Biol. 42:382-384. Nei and Roychoudhury have argued that the genetic tree obtained by Cavalli presents flaws. If this is correct, then the previous comparisons between gene trees and language trees must be re-evaluated: Nei, M., and A. K. Roychoudhury. 1993. Evolutionary relationships of human populations on a global scale. Mol. Biol. Evol. 10:927-943. Hope this is useful, Diogo Meyer ****************************************** Diogo Meyer Dept. Biologia, Instituto de Biociencias Universidade de Sao Paulo Caixa Postal 11461 CEP 05422-970 Sao Paulo Brazil email@example.com FAX +55 (11) 852 6298 tel +55 (11) 887 3831 ****************************************** _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:22>From firstname.lastname@example.org Thu Feb 23 09:13:50 1995 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:13:46 -0500 (EST) From: John E Limber <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: the stories apes tell... Why bother with Patterson? Why not go directly to the --so to speak--horse's mouth and get Koko herself to sign on the topic of ape oral traditions? I'm sure you could get a signing "communication facilitator" to help out! John Limber Department of Psychology University of New Hampshire, Durham NH 03824, USA email: email@example.com >I'm trying to reach Penny Patterson regarding her work on gorillas. If >anyone could help me contact her I would greatly appreciate it. I'm looking >for someone(s) to speak on the subject of the narratives of the great apes >(their "oral literature" as it were) for an upcomming session for the Society >for Literature and Science. Many thanks... >Nick Gessler - Anthro - UCLA _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:23>From sarich@QAL.Berkeley.EDU Thu Feb 23 11:38:30 1995 From: Prof Vince Sarich <sarich@qal.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:40:15 -0800 To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Adam's rib Some thoughts on the following: From: MARQUISA LAVELLE <HJW101@URIACC.URI.EDU> Subject: Re: Creationism creeps up in the least expected places 20 Feb 1995 07:55:05 -0800 (PST) from <email@example.com> To: "Adam's Rib" <humbio-l@fauvax.BITNET> Reply-to: humbio-l@ACC.FAU.EDU Eugenie: The results of a three year survey (notecards) of introductory Human Evolution Students on the number of ribs among men and women are that approximately 45% of university freshmen and sophomores that take this course believe that males have an extra set of ribs! When I ask students why they think this, they quote Genesis, however they are unable to explain why males have more rather than less, as should be the case from a literal reading of these passages. My guess is that it is hard to attribute males having less but they strongly believe in funda- mental differences. HOWEVER, when queried about communal living with dinosaurs they pooh-pooh this idea as "naive." Go Figure! Marquisa ----------------------- The appearance of the above on my screen this morning reminded me of the only apparently original idea I've ever had. Some years ago now, I was working in the lab late one Friday afternoon and two of our graduate students came in. They had just been at a Zoology Dep't seminar and one of them asked me -- apropos of what I do not remember -- "why don't human males have a baculum?" (A baculum, by the way, is a penis bone, and is present in most male primates, bats, carnivores, rodents, and, I think, a few insectivores.) My off-the-top-of-my-head, never missed a beat response, was: "because God made Eve out of it." Walking home that evening and thinking about the episode, I said to myself, "that was pretty clever" and then typed out the story for Alan Dundes, our resident folklorist -- who eventually published as part of an article on the couvade (don't ask). It's also made a good Anthro 1 story over the years. How seriously to take it? I still don't know. The points here are several. The first is that human males are in fact missing a bone -- not a rib, true, but a bone nonetheless. So I wonder if the rib story could be some kind of ancient bowlderization? Next is the fact of the extreme suspiciousness of women exhibited by the religions of the area. How better to justify this than by accusing them of having, in effect, stolen a significant portion of our manhood. Then there are the facts that human art often characterizes hunting animals as males, and the hunted as females; that of course human males do virtually all the hunting in our species; and, finally, that among all the hunters, only human males are missing a baculum. So I ask: (1) Is there a pre-Berkeley source for this story? (2) Is there a precursor to the Adam's rib story in pre-biblical writings? (3) Are there other published attempts at explaining the Adam's rib story? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Vincent Sarich _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:24>From firstname.lastname@example.org Sun Feb 26 17:34:32 1995 From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G) ANTHRO" <email@example.com> To: DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: thanks re stories apes tell Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 15:35:00 PST Thanks to all of your who directed me to Patterson. I've been in touch with Penny Patterson, and we're looking forward to a talk on Gorilla gestural language in November at UCLA. To Iain Davidson - could you supply more information on the Primate-Talk group? Should all communications go through you? To John Limber - I asked, and Koko has other engagements. It seems that Koko doesn't like academic gatherings. Nick Gessler UCLA Anthropology _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:25>From firstname.lastname@example.org Sun Feb 26 17:34:41 1995 From: email@example.com (Roger B. Blumberg) Subject: MendelWeb To: firstname.lastname@example.org Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 18:27:39 -0500 (EST) As some of you know, MendelWeb is a electronic educational resource for the World Wide Web, built upon Gregor Mendel's famous pea plant paper of 1865. MendelWeb has not been officially announced, and is still under construction; but, the first strands can be found at http://www.netspace.org/MendelWeb/. In a few weeks I will add a collaborative hypertext to MendelWeb, that will allow readers to contribute annotations to both English and German versions of Mendel's paper, and the resulting text will be available for all users to read. In the meantime, I am asking several sceintists and writers to take a look at the paper(s), and to consider contributing the first comments and annotations. As I know that some members of this list are quite interested in Mendel, and may be effective teachers of his work (and perhaps his paper), I am inviting interested members to consider contributing something to the collaborative text(s). They can be found at http://www.netspace.org/MendelWeb/CollText/ The collaborative hypertexts will eventually be linked to the rest of MendelWeb, and will be available (for reading and writing) to all users. But for the moment, and until I can get some initial (exemplary?) commentary, I ask that you please NOT announce the existence of this text in your class(es), or forward this message to other lists. On the other hand, if you know of particular people you think would make important contributions to the collaborative Mendel, feel free to pass this information along. If you have any questions about MendelWeb or participating in the collaborative project, please don't hesistate to e-mail me. Thanks for your attention. Sincerely, Roger <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger B. Blumberg Institute for Brain & Neural Systems Department of Physics, Brown University email@example.com 401-863-3920 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:26>From firstname.lastname@example.org Sun Feb 26 17:56:03 1995 From: "Gessler, Nicholas (G) ANTHRO" <email@example.com> To: DARWIN - postings <DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: giving/taking the piss Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 15:56:00 PST Using urine to cleanse wounds has been part of military field knowledge. You might try looking at some emergency medical field manuals. Better yet, contact someone in charge of such training at a military base. Let us know what you find... Nick Gessler, Anthropology UCLA _______________________________________________________________________________ <18:27>From bcorner@Natick-EMH2.Army.Mil Mon Feb 27 08:06:23 1995 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 8:51:57 EST From: Brian Corner x <bcorner@Natick-EMH2.Army.Mil> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: giving/taking the piss I just spoke to some friends here who are familiar with most of the Army medical lore and they didn't recall any training regarding using urine to clean wounds. Obviously, you could use urine if there was no other liquid available and the wound was particularly dirty. But, urine is not ideal as it is not equivalent to a sterile saline solution for example. Just about any chemical/micro organism in the body may at one time or another be present in urine. Food for thought next time you have to pee in a cup for a drug screening. ************************************************************* Brian Corner * GEO-CENTERS, INC email@example.com * 190 N. Main St. 508.651.3501 (voice) * Natick, MA 01760 508.651.0229 (FAX) * ************************************************************* In recent decades anthropometry has declined, except for applied anthropology. Instead of measuring the bodies of the last remants of aboriginal populations, anthropometrists measure military personnel and civilians in order to design railroad and airplane seats and space suits. Doctors of Philosophy have become tailors to the new age of science. C. Coon "The Origin of Races" *************************************************************** _______________________________________________________________________________ Darwin-L Message Log 18: 1-27 -- February 1995 End
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