Darwin-L Message Log 1: 1–40 — September 1993

Academic Discussion on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L was an international discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences, active from 1993–1997. Darwin-L was established to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among scholars, scientists, and researchers in these fields. The group had more than 600 members from 35 countries, and produced a consistently high level of discussion over its several years of operation. Darwin-L was not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin, but instead addressed the entire range of historical sciences from an explicitly comparative perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical geography, historical anthropology, and related “palaetiological” fields.

This log contains public messages posted to the Darwin-L discussion group during September 1993. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.

The master copy of this log is maintained in the Darwin-L Archives (rjohara.net/darwin) by Dr. Robert J. O’Hara. The Darwin-L Archives also contain additional information about the Darwin-L discussion group, the complete Today in the Historical Sciences calendar for every month of the year, a collection of recommended readings on the historical sciences, and an account of William Whewell’s concept of “palaetiology.”

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DARWIN-L MESSAGE LOG 1: 1-40 -- SEPTEMBER 1993
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DARWIN-L
A Network Discussion Group on the
History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu is an international network discussion group on
the history and theory of the historical sciences.  Darwin-L was established
in September 1993 to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of
which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present,
and to encourage communication among academic professionals in these fields.
Darwin-L is not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles
Darwin but instead addresses the entire range of historical sciences from an
interdisciplinary perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical
linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology,
systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical
anthropology, historical geography, and related "palaetiological" fields.

This log contains public messages posted to Darwin-L during September 1993.
It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease
of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been
reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to
the group as a whole have been deleted.  No genuine editorial changes have been
made to the content of any of the posts.  This log is provided for personal
reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein
should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.
The master copy of this log is maintained in the archives of Darwin-L by
listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu.  For instructions on how to retrieve copies of
this and other log files, and for additional information about Darwin-L, send
the e-mail message INFO DARWIN-L to listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu.

Darwin-L is administered by Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu), Center for
Critical Inquiry in the Liberal Arts and Department of Biology, University of
North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A., and it
is supported by the Center for Critical Inquiry, University of North Carolina
at Greensboro, and the Department of History and the Academic Computing Center,
University of Kansas.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:1>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Sat Sep  4 20:19:01 1993

Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1993 21:25:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: Greetings to all new subscribers
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

Greetings to all the new subscribers to Darwin-L.  The first public
announcements of the list were sent out just 24 hours ago, and we already
have 80 subscribers, from Canada, Iceland, Italy, Australia, Germany, Brazil,
the United States, and New Zealand.  That surely bodes well for our group,
especially since this is a weekend, and in the United States a holiday
weekend at that.

My wish in establishing this group is to encourage interdisciplinary
discussion among practicioners, theorists, and historians of all the
historical sciences.  These fields -- historical geology, evolutionary
biology, archeology, historical linguistics, and cosmology, among others --
are scattered today across a variety of departments at most universities, but
they all share the common goal of reconstructing the past from evidence in
the present.  My own perspective on the historical sciences comes from my
background in evolutionary biology, and in particular in systematics, the
study of evolutionary trees.  My research has concerned the history and
theory of evolutionary trees as representational devices, and the nature of
historical explanation and inference in evolutionary biology.  I am also
collaborating with a manuscript scholar applying some of the techniques now
used in systematics for the reconstruction of evolutionary trees to the
reconstruction of the copying history of Medieval manuscripts.  Like
biological species, ancient and medieval manuscripts are commonly related to
one another through "descent with modification", and the computer software
developed for analyzing evolutionary trees turns out to work quite well for
the analysis of manuscript trees ("stemmata") also.

But Darwin-L will not just follow my interests: it will become whatever we as
a group make of it within the general context of the historical sciences.  I
encourage new members to introduce themselves and say something of their
interests if they wish; others who prefer to "lurk" -- as we say on the
network -- are of course welcome to do that as well.  I hope to put a few
lists of references on the historical sciences up on the ukanaix computer
shortly, and will let you all know when they become available.

A note on the geography of Darwin-L itself is perhaps in order: I am a
postdoctoral fellow at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and
the computer that runs Darwin-L is located at the University of Kansas in
Lawrence.  Prof. Lynn Nelson of the Kansas History Department has been kind
enough to serve as our network host, as Darwin-L fits in with a range of
history computing initiatives he is sponsoring.

To set our general theme, I will offer for your consideration two quotations
from the 19th-Century English polymath William Whewell, one of the first
people who described and characterized the historical sciences as a group.
Whewell coined the unpronounceable term "palaetiological" for these sciences:
the sciences of historical causation.  1994 will be the 200th anniversary of
Whewell's birth, and I think it's time to revive his perspective on the
historical sciences, though probably not his term for them!  Here is Whewell:

"As we may look back towards the first condition of our planet, we may in
like manner turn our thoughts towards the first condition of the solar
system, and try whether we can discern any traces of an order of things
antecedent to that which is now established; and if we find, as some great
mathematicians have conceived, indications of an earlier state in which the
planets were not yet gathered into their present forms, we have, in pursuit
of this train of research, a palaetiological portion of Astronomy.  Again, as
we may inquire how languages, and how man, have been diffused over the
earth's surface from place to place, we may make the like inquiry with regard
to the races of plants and animals, founding our inferences upon the existing
geographical distribution of animal and vegetable kingdoms: and this the
Geography of Plants and of Animals also becomes a portion of Palaetiology.
Again, as we can in some measure trace the progress of Arts from nation to
nation and from age to age, we can also pursue a similar investigation with
respect to the progress of Mythology, of Poetry, of Government, of Law....It
is not an arbitrary and useless proceeding to construct such a Class of
sciences.  For wide and various as their subjects are, it will be found that
they have all certain principles, maxims, and rules of procedure in common;
and thus may reflect light upon each other by being treated together."
(William Whewell, _The Philosophy of the Inductive Sciences_, second edition,
London: John W. Parker, 1847.  Volume 1, pp. 639-640.)

"I have ventured to give reasons why the chemical sciences (chemistry,
mineralogy, electrochemistry) are not at the present time in a condition
which makes them important general elements of a liberal education.  But
there is another class of sciences, the palaetiological sciences, which from
the largeness of their views and the exactness of the best portions of their
reasonings are well fitted to form part of that philosophical discipline
which a liberal education ought to include.  Of these sciences, I have
mentioned two, one depending mainly upon the study of language and the other
upon the sciences which deal with the material world.  These two sciences,
ethnography, or comparative philology, and geology, are among those
progressive sciences which may be most properly taken into a liberal
education as instructive instances of the wide and rich field of facts and
reasonings with which modern science deals, still retaining, in many of its
steps, great rigour of proof; and as an animating display also of the large
and grand vistas of time, succession, and causation, which are open to the
speculative powers of man." (William Whewell on liberal education, quoted in
_Great Ideas Today_, 1991:388-389.)

Bob O'Hara

Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu)
Center for Critical Inquiry and Department of Biology
100 Foust Building, University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:2>From af763@freenet.carleton.ca  Sun Sep  5 05:55:28 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 06:57:48 EDT
From: af763@freenet.carleton.ca (John V Matthews Jr.)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: An Introduction

I am not sure where the introduction to Darwin-L came from, but I like the
concept and following Bob's lead will first introduce myself.

I am John Matthews, age 54, Canadian citizen but formerly from the US, a
Geologist with the Geological Survey of Canada.  I live and work in
Ottawa, Canada.

I was hooked by Bob's first promo comments because of the potential
interdisciplinary nature of this discussion group.  In my academic and
professional career, I have followed a wandering (some would say confused)
course, starting long ago as a Physics major, then switching to History,
then getting a BSc in Geography with an Anthropology minor, then switching
to Geology for an MSc and PhD.

So I have always felt a stong link with historians, something most of my
prehistorian colleagues do not.

I am a paleontologist, a subdiscipline of Geology, and my research work
concerns the reconstructions of past climates and environments, mostly for
the last five million years or so.  Lately this type of work has become
more important as many realize that we must understand past climate change
if we are to understand and respond to future anthropogenic change (if it
occurs).

As a paleontologist, I work with various types of fossils.  Plant remains
such as seeds and fruits and insects are my particular subjects.

The region of my work has for the most part in the Arctic and Subarctic of
North America.  One problem that particularly interests me, and one for
which we have considerable data, concerns the Canadian Arctic before it
became arctic, a time of lush conifer forests containing many organisms
now extinct or found only in Asia.

Well, there it is.  I hope others will introduce themselves in like manner.

Best wishes,
John

--
     *****************************************
           JOHN MATTHEWS
    matthews@cc2smtp.emr.ca; af763@freenet.carleton.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:3>From LBRYNES@vax.clarku.edu  Sun Sep  5 06:19:49 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 07:22 EST
From: GIVE PEAS A CHANCE <LBRYNES@vax.clarku.edu>
Subject: Re: An Introduction
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

My name is Lois. I work at a Science Musuem that has extensive natural
history collections, large wildlife holdings [i.e. a "zoo"] and many
exhibits.  Our mission ties these holdings together through an
environmental focus, particularly global change research. We use GIS
[IDRISI] on the floor and in programs to introduce to the public the
ways in which information systems are being developed to monitor, analyze,
model Earth system dynamics.
	We are currently working with Lynn Margulis' lab for part
of a major installation RE: energy and global change.
	Prior to joining the science center, I taught for many years
at Clark University in Worcester Mass. My particular interest are
in History of Science...shifting paradigms, social construction of
reality[ies} through abdaptation of metaphor.  WHOOPS and gender/culture
issues.

Lois Brynes
Associate Director
New England Science Center
Worcester MA
USA
lbrynes@vaz.clarku.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:4>From acvascon@ibase.br  Sun Sep  5 07:04:23 1993

From: acvascon@ibase.br
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 09:04:38 BRA
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Presentation

   Following Dr. Matthews footsteps I would like to introduce myself into
the community.

   I am a graduate in biology but my field of work is paleontology. I am 28
years old. Rigth now I am preparing a monograph which deals with selected
Middle Carboniferous rugose corals from Western Laurasia and Northwestern
Gondwana. I am trying to understand the pattern of distribution of these coral
genera and the play of the Amazon basin for coral distribution during Middle
Carboniferous.

  I am also using my time in another kind of work, but at species level.
The approach is the same cited above just including the use of multivariate
morphometrics to distinguish the coral species.

   Both studies are based in vicariance cladistics, in other words, I am
trying to access the pattern of distribution of the rugose coral fauna studying
their process of development and character distribution.

   I would like to congratulate Dr. O`Hara for the great idea to open up this
forum. I have been looking for such a group for a long time.

   I use this time to ask a question to Dr. Matthews. During my work I have
noticed that one probable route for coral migration during Middle Carboniferous
was tha Canadian Artic Archipelago. Could you give some pieces of information
about the climate in that region during the time interval cited (Bashkirian
age). Any reference to read????

   The question is open to all colleagues and I would be very pleased to hear
your opinion.

      Alberto

***********************************
Alberto Correa de Vasconcellos
R. Pereira da Silva, 140/301
Laranjeiras  Rio de Janeiro
22221-140  Rio de Janeiro  Brasil
E-mail: acvascon@ax.ibase.br
***********************************

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:5>From fresco@gibbs.oit.unc.edu  Sun Sep  5 07:48:37 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 08:42:53 +0501 (EDT)
From: "David M. Fresco" <fresco@gibbs.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Introduction
To: Darwin-L <darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>

Greetings,

My name is David Fresco and I am a 3rd Year graduate student in clinical
psychology at UNC Chapel Hill.  I have been interested in the work of
Darwin for several years.

Perhaps a bigger interest of mine deals with comparisons of the work of
Darwin to the work of B.F. Skinner.  Skinner himself compares his work as
a theory of ontegney to Darwin's theory of phylogeny.  I think that I will be
able to contribute to discussions along these lines more readily than to some
strictly biological topics.

David Fresco
fresco@unc.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:6>From SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU  Sun Sep  5 10:20:02 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 11:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU
Subject: Re: Introduction
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Saludos a todos:
  My name is Raymond (Ray) Lewis and I am a semi retired Assoc. Prof. from
Eastern Kentucky University. My background is diverse beginning with a BS in
ed. with a major is history and music with a Spanish minor. Later after a
Fulbright grant to study the civilization and culture of India I moved to
Kentucky and began on the PhD program. The first attempt was in the field of
Political Science with major fields in South Asia, Soviet Studies and
Modern Europe with an Anthropology minor. Later I became interested in South
America and get into the history program at the Univesity of Kentucky. The
major was 19th century Latin American Social History with other fields of
Early Medieval history, Renaissance and Reformation, and Latin American
Literature.
  For almost ten years I have taught courses for our Dept. of Sociology,
Anthropology and Social Work. Those courses have included Cultural
Anthropology, Physical Anthropology, Ethnography, Peasant and Folk cultures,
and Latin American Culture.  If my life could be relived Cultural Anthro.
would be my goal with a minor in Ethnomusicology.
  The two years teaching Physical Anthropology, etc plus an interest in
Prehistory and Archaeology prompted me to respond the instant Darwin crossed
my e-mail. I frankly expect to learn far more than I can give from this BB
but expect it to be interesting. I plan to spend a good deal of time this
winter in Venezuela and if any of you need anything from there please let me
know.
 Cail luego!
 Ray Lewis
 soslewis@acs.eku.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:7>From mperry@BIX.com  Sun Sep  5 10:59:12 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 11:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: mperry@BIX.com
Subject: Re: An Introduction
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

My Name is Mike
I am a prehistoric archaeologist interested in correlating existing
hunter-gatherer adaptation with their aboriginal counterparts in
primarily arid or semi-arid ecosystems.  I'
(whoops) I'm also interested formation processes (geologic and man-
made of both natural and archaeological site phenomena.  I am active
in both archaeological and anthropological research on applied tech-
nologies of nomadic hunter-gatherers.  I work for an environmental
services consultant in Northern California.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:8>From af763@freenet.carleton.ca  Sun Sep  5 11:07:53 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 12:10:12 EDT
From: af763@freenet.carleton.ca (John V Matthews Jr.)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Alberto's question

Alberto:

Yours was probbly the kind of question that need a personal reply, rather
than one brodcast to the whole group, but I'll do so in public here
because I have one suggestion for the operation of the group and that is
that we drop the epithets "Dr" and "Professor".  I've always felt
uncomfortable being called doctor--half expecting someone to call on me to
do some risky medical procedure on an airplane.  So please.  "John" is
fine for me.

As to your question, I know little about Paleozoic corals and a little
about the Paleozoic of the Arctic Islands.  I will try to dig up a few
references and pass them to you on your e-net address.  I
would send them to you, but unfortunately we can no longer obtain free
copies of our own institute's publications.

Best...
John

--
     *****************************************
           JOHN MATTHEWS
    matthews@cc2smtp.emr.ca; af763@freenet.carleton.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:9>From davidp@ucmp1.Berkeley.EDU  Sun Sep  5 11:21:38 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 09:24:25 PDT
From: davidp@ucmp1.Berkeley.EDU (David Polly)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Introduction...

My name is David Polly.  I am a finishing Ph.D. student this semester
in the Department of Integrative Biology at U.C. Berkeley who is
currently looking for a post-doc or job.  I am interested in several
things...mammalian evolution and phylogeny, evolutionary theory,
phylogenetic theory, and the history of science.  My dissertation
work is about the relationship of systematics to evolutionary theory
and on the phylogeny and evolution of an early group of placental
mammals, the creodonta.  Part of my work has been on the history
of biological classification and its relationship to changing ideas about
the nature of evolution.  It is this aspect of my work that sparks my
interest in this listserver.

I am also the systems administrator for the internet server of the
Museum of Paleontology at Berkeley.  Our address is ucmp1.berkeley.edu
and we offer a number of services that may be of interest to some
of the subscribers of this list... We have a gopher on port 70, which
contains some of our collections catalogs, information forms, a little
about our museum and its research, and an online exhibit on great
white shark research.  We also run a World Wide Web server on port 80,
which supports all of the above services as well as additional information
about the work of individual researchers at the Museum, an online presentation
of some of the Musuem's public exhibits (currently under construction),
and will soon have an exhibit on Dilophosaurus, featured in Jurassic
Park, which was originally discovered and described by Dr. Sam Welles
of our Museum.

Thanks.

David Polly | Museum of Paleontology and Dept. of Integrative Biology |
University of California | Berkeley, CA  94720 | davidp@ucmp1.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:10>From LBRYNES@vax.clarku.edu  Sun Sep  5 11:39:46 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 12:41 EST
From: GIVE PEAS A CHANCE <LBRYNES@vax.clarku.edu>
Subject: A tid bit following David P.'s note
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

I often email orts to Musuem staff as, HOPEFULLY!, a stimulus to
thought. We have quite a mix.
So, re: David Polly's note on classification, I thought some of
you may enjoy this:

Thought for the day...Taxonomy

from Foucault, q.i. Museums and the Shaping of Knowledge
..This passage quotes a certain Chinese encyclopedia in
which it is written that animals are divided into
	belonging to the Emperor
	embalmed
	tame
	sucking pigs
	sirens
	fabulous
	stray dogs
	included in the present classification
	frenzied
	innumerable
	drawn with a very fine camel-hair brush
	et cetera
	having just broken the water pitcher
	that from a long way off look like flies
In the wonderment of this taxonomy, the thing that, by
meansof this fable,  we apprehend in one great leap,
is demonstrated as the charm of another system of
thought, is the limitation of our own, the stark
impossibility of thinking THAT.

Greenhill analyzes...
..presumably the list was regarded as rational, as a
valid way of knowing...To be able to make sense of the
list wouldbe mind-expanding and would offer new
possibilities of classifyingthe world, and even new
ways of living in it.

It would certainly demand new ways of organizing
Museum and art gallery collections. The separations
we know between fine and decorative art and natural
 history, for example, would collapse...collections
would need to be reordered; painting, artifacts and
specimens would need to be place differently within
display cases....

IF NEW TAXONOMIES MEAN NEW WAYS OF ORDERING AND
DOCUMENTING COLLECTIONS, THEN DO THE EXISTING WAYS
IN WHICH COLLECTIONS ARE ORGANIZED MEAN THAT
TAXONOMIES ARE IN FACT SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED
RATHER THAT TRUE OR RATIONAL... [emphasis mine]

Do existing systems of classification enable some ways of
knowing, but prevent others? Are the exclusions, inclusions,
and priorities that determine whether objects become
part of collections, also creating systems of knowledge?....

Don, can you get zoo staff on reworking signage!!!
Thanks

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:11>From mufw@midway.uchicago.edu  Sun Sep  5 11:56:28 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 11:49:14 CST
From: "salikoko mufwene" <mufw@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: INTRODUCTION

My name is Salikoko S. Mufwene, Professor of Linguistics at the University
of Chicago. I am usually addressed as "Sali." My training is in syntax and
semantics, as well as language contact. Most of my current research has been
on creole genesis, where I am constantly confronted with variation in the
input systems, selection, variation in the output systems, and relevance of
the ethnolinguistic ecology. Working with physical anthropologists at the
University of Georgia got me interested in population genetics, through the
popular science literature, hoping to get inspired by a different analytical
framework to gain insights on my problems. Curiosity made me join this
forum. Don't be surprised by some naive questions.
Sali(koko Mufwene)
s-mufwene@uchicago.edu
312-702-8531

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:12>From tclarke@uoguelph.ca  Sun Sep  5 12:33:16 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 13:29:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Clarke <tclarke@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Re: chinese classifications...
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

 ...an interesting method of classification for animals...
   ...since just about everything I work with would fall
 under the catagory 'from a long way off looks like flies' it
 would certainly make my life easier.

  For the record, my name is Tom Clarke and I'm an amateur
 entomologist, with an interest in insect wing derivation and the
 role of the aquatic environment in insect evolution.  Curiosity
 more then anything else brought me to this list, so I'll probably
 just be lurking in the background for now.

   -Anax-

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:13>From FA55%NEMOMUS.BITNET@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU  Sun Sep  5 12:49:31 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 12:47:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "OREL, SARA" <FA55%NEMOMUS.BITNET@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: another introduction
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

I am an archaeologist and Egyptologist, teaching art history at
Northeast Missouri State University in Kirksville.  I teach a course in
Historical Methods where I try to combine the history of art history and
basic historiography with other types of approaches to material culture
(anthropology figures into this, of course; I also assign readings
on the history of museums and collecting, and the history of display
and classification).
  This is my professional background, and my initial interest in
the list, but I look forward to discussions on this list that are not
at first glance directly relevant tmaterial culture or anything like
that.  The best part of a computer discussion list is what you learn
by happy accident.  I may not have much to say after this posting
but I will read with interest whatever may be posted by others.  This
list should be good at bringing together an intriguing cross-section
of disciplines.
           Sara Orel
           FA55@nemomus (bitnet)
           FA55%nemomus@academic.nemostate.edu
                  (internet)

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:14>From davidp@ucmp1.Berkeley.EDU  Sun Sep  5 13:57:00 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 11:59:45 PDT
From: davidp@ucmp1.Berkeley.EDU (David Polly)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Classification and things that look like flies

I like the group in Lois' chinese classification of things "that
look like flies from far away."  I think this group is still used
alot...

I want to add my own opinion on some of the aspects raised by Lois
in her note...

She presented a quote asking,  "IF NEW TAXONOMIES MEAN NEW
WAYS OF ORDERING AND DOCUMENTING COLLECTIONS, THEN DO THE EXISTING
WAYS IN WHICH COLLECTIONS ARE ORGANIZED MEAN THAT
TAXONOMIES ARE IN FACT SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED
RATHER THAT TRUE OR RATIONAL.... "  She expanded this question
to ask whether existing systems of classification enable some ways
of knowing, but prevent others.  These are both very interesting
questions, especially when it comes to zoological classifications
of animals, which are based both on contemporary research and
rules and traditions of legalistic taxonomic priority.  These
two aspects interact in interesting ways...

My own area of expertise is vertebrate, especially mammalian, classification
above the species level.  Since the early 1700's the philosphophy of
vertebrate classification has undergone a number of widespread paradigm
shifts that were mostly prompted by changes in evolutionary paradigm and
by "social" interactions within the scientific community producing
classifications.  On of the most interesting, in my opinion, was what
happened to classification in the last half of the 19th century after
the general acceptance of evolution in the zoological community.
Through that time, classifications of vertebrates went from a
completely heirarchical, nested set of groups to a "graded" classification
in which evolutionary lineages evolved "into" new groups as they changed
over time.  These groups had fuzzy diagnoses and were arranged like
steps on a ladder.  They were a completely new construct--nothing
like them was used before about 1860.  It would appear that this style
of classification had two main goals: to portray groups "naturally"
according to the "laws of evolution" and to make groups more dynamic
in order to convince an unconvinced scientific and public community
of the reality of evolution.  The view of evolution as something
similar to the unfolding of ontogeny, or embryonic development,
inspired a classification based on stages or grades, similar to
stages of an animal embryo.  The desire to demonstrate evolution
by shown that a single evolving lineage "moved" from taxonomic
group to taxonomic group also motivated many of the taxonomists
of this time.

This note could go on forever, so I think I will leave it here
for the moment.  I only want to add that there have been several
paradigm shifts in the philosophy of vertebrate classification since that
time and there is one going on right now as the movement for
a completely cladistic classification gains almost universal
acceptance among taxonomists, especially younger ones.  All of
these movements since the mid-19th century have had as their stated
goal the reconciliation of taxonomy with the fact of evolution, but
they have all gone about this reconciliation in different ways--
usually in ways that were a reaction against the prevailing
paradigm of the day.  In this last respect, the paradigm shift
could be viewed to a greater or lesser extent as a rebellion by
up-and-coming younger scientists against their conception of
the "dogmatic" beliefs of their mentors.  By portraying groups
in new ways and for new reasons it is often possible to make that
which seems old and outmoded new and fresh, even when the actual
changes may be very subtle...

David Polly | Museum of Paleontology and Department of Integrative Biology |
University of California | Berkeley, CA  94720 | davidp@ucmp1.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:15>From MKIMBALL@macc.wisc.edu  Sun Sep  5 15:28:47 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 93 15:29 CDT
From: Michael Kimball <MKIMBALL@macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: another new member
To: DARWIN-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hello to all other new members,

My name is Mike Kimball and I'm a dissertator in archaeology at the University
of Wisconsin.  I found out about the Darwin-l group -I think- because I'm part
of another group, Arch-L, specifically devoted to archaeological topics.

My research interests are diverse: my dissertation research is concerned with
the prehistoric transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture in Ireland
about 6000 years ago, part of a worldwide development beginning about 10,000
years ago, continuing to happen today and still influencing the nature of our
future (a good candidate for "palaetiological" study?); I'm also fascinated by
a the emerging field of "evolutionary psychology," which attempts to combine
findings of cognitive psychology with those of other disciplines such as
anthropology, archaeology, evolutionary biology, etc. within a Darwinian
framework (in other words, they are trying to establish an evolutionary basis
for human behavior and cognition) -a bit of food for thought: evolutionary
psychologists argue that our pecularly human set of cognitive programs "evolved
in the Pleistocene to solve the adaptive problems regularly faced by our
hunter-gatherer ancestors ..." (The Adapted Mind, edited by J. Barkow, L.
Cosmedes and J. Tooby; Oxford University Press, 1992), thus, the human mind
evolved to cope with Pleistocene environmental and social conditions, not
modern (or Neolithic and later) conditions.  Comments?

Another interest of mine is the emerging science of Complexity Theory (for
those unfamiliar with this, try the very accessible "Complexity: Life at the
Edge of Chaos," by Roger Lewin; Macmillan Publ. 1992), the study of which
embodies all of the rewards and challenges of interdisciplinary pursuits.  I
would argue that the science of complexity is, by definition, an historical
science in that it attempts to describe and explain the dynamics inherent in
changing system states (any kind of system, e.g., cultural, economic,
electronic, ecological).  For those of us tantalized by the concept of
"emergent novelty," this stuff is compelling.

In the interest of keeping this intro brief, I'll add just one more dimension.
I think that the application of the analytical and representational
technologies available in Geographic Information Systems is a key to pushing
further the exploration of change.  I think that research into the definition
and representation of "cognitive landcapes," i.e., how the external world is
perceived by human beings (e.g., one can map a geographic region in economic,
political, social or ecological "space"), can lend unique insight into the
influences underlying cultural change.

O.k., that's all for now.  I'd like to hear any comments, criticisms, tangents,
on any of the above.  Thanks to the creators and users for making this list
possible!

Mike Kimball
Department of Anthropology
University of Wisconsin-Madison

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:16>From UGG00031@vm.uoguelph.ca  Sun Sep  5 15:43:53 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 93 16:44:45 EST
From: Bruce Trieselmann <UGG00031@vm.uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Intro.
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hello, all.  I'm a Ph.D. student of molecular biology and genetics.
Molecular systematics and phylogenetics are pet interests of mine; topics I
persued for fun and for argument as an undergrad.  This List had a timely
appearance for me as well, since I am currently trying to develop a research
project along this theme.  I have previously worked on projects designed to
characterize the genomes of halophilic archaebacteria and as a result have
developed an awe and fascination towards the extant and extinct life on this
planet.  I have to admit my opinions on evolution are narrow and biased, so
I'm looking foreward to the broad range of ideas that will be discussed on
this List.

Sincerely, Bruce Trieselmann.

If I figured this E-Mail stuff out right, my name and address should follow...

___________________________________________
Bruce Trieselmann <ugg00031@VM.UoGuelph.Ca>
Molecular Biology and Genetics
University of Guelph, Canada

Nihil est opere et manu factum quod tempus non consumat. (Cicero)

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:17>From bdenzler@acpub.duke.edu  Sun Sep  5 16:28:00 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 17:28:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler@acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: What's it all about?!!
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hello!

I, too, am a new subscriber on this list.  I thought it might be useful to
me because of the "historical anthropology" mention in the advertising
post.  But in the two "intros" that I read so far there is nothing
approximating an interest in the historical aspects of *cultural*
anthropology...or, if you prefer, the cultural anthropological aspects of
*history*.

Am I on the wrong list, or what?

Brenda

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:18>From stcmille@panix.com  Sun Sep  5 17:54:11 1993

From: Cheese Miller <stcmille@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Evolutionary Psychology
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 18:56:15 -0400 (EDT)

Just a note about Evolutionary Psychology, spcificaly about the book,
(The Adapted Mind, edited by J. Barkow, L. Cosmedes and J. Tooby; Oxford
University Press, 1992), which seems to be the focus of much of the
discussion I've seen of this topic.

I agree that what they are calling Evolutionary Psychology is highly
worth doing - its almost like a GUT for the social sciences - or at
least a certain very interesting corner of them.  The introduction to
the book is particularly interesting and provocative, pointing to new
directions fusing psychology and evolution.  The postscript, too, is
interesting.  The problem comes in the middle.  That is, the theoretical
stuff is very nice, but my sampling of the many papers in this book did
not impress me overly.  I thought they resembled finely tuned
sociobiology, actually.

I'm looking forward to getting back to this interesting book.  But the
GUT for the social sciences has not been achieved.  Maybe some people
have glimpsed what it might look like.  But I'm a  little skeptical.

=Steve

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:19>From jacobsk@ERE.UMontreal.CA  Sun Sep  5 18:42:43 1993

From: jacobsk@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Jacobs Kenneth)
Subject: Yet another self-intro
To: Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 17:01:53 -0400 (EDT)

Greetings,
	First, my thanks to the organizers of this list for their work.  What
a wonderful idea!
	I'm from the US, hope to return there eventually, but not until my kids
are more firmly bilingual.  So for now I'm Assoc. Prof. of Anthropology at the
Universite de Montreal.  My "normal scientific" activity focuses on the social
and economic transformations in eastern Europe (in the very broad sense of
<<from the Carpathians to the Urals, and from the Barents to the Black Seas>>)
from the end of the Upper Paleolithic to the onset of the Iron Age.  Which
sounds like what scads of archaeologists do.  My thing, however, is to try to
use the human skeletal remains from cemeteries of this time and place to shed
light on the cultural changes.
	My true love though centers on the history and philosophy of the human
sciences in general, and those involved in the construction of human evolution
more particularly.  It's what my grad students are doing their Master's theses
on and it's increasingly where my energies go in my own musings, as I amass
rejection after rejection of grant proposals to return to the (former) USSR to
gather more traditional skeletal data.  Perhaps the start-up of this List is
some sort of sign?  In any event, I look forward to the discussions here.

Ken Jacobs
Departement d'anthropologie
Universite de Montreal
C.P. 6128 / Succ. 'A'
Montreal Quebec  H3C 3J7  CANADA
jacobsk@ere.umontreal.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:20>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Sun Sep  5 19:47:18 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 20:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: Geology and Language, and a Darwin-L Update
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

Greetings again to all new subscribers to Darwin-L, and thanks for the many
introductions.  Darwin-L is now just 48 hours old, and already we have more
than 130 subscribers from 13 countries; perhaps this is a listserv box-office
record?  Yesterday I sent out a personal greeting to everyone, and will
repeat that message in a day or two when the initial burst of subscriptions
begins to settle down.  People who have posted general queries already should
not be discouraged if they don't get immediate replies; when a new list opens
many subscribers will just watch how things go for a while before jumping in.
Feel free to post your queries again in a few days when things settle down.
In the mean time, since I know we have both geologists and linguists among
us, I thought I would mention a fascinating book that recently appeared:

 Naumann, Bernd, et al. (eds.).  1992.  Language and Earth: Elective
 Affinities Between the Emerging Sciences of Linguistics and Geology.
 Amsterdam: John Benjamins.  (Studies in the History of Language Sciences,
 vol. 66.)

It is a symposium volume with papers in English and German on a variety of
19th century linguists and geologists, including Schlegel, Grimm, Lyell,
Whitney, Fuchsel, Werner, Darwin, and Hutton.  (And it is outrageously
priced.)  As a sample of the kind of comparisons these early authors made,
consider John William Donaldson in 1850:

 "The study of language is indeed perfectly analogous to Geology; they both
 present us with a set of deposits in a present state of amalgamation which
 however may be easily discriminated, and we may by an allowable chain of
 reasoning in either case deduce from the _present_ the _former_ condition,
 and determine by what causes and in what manner the superposition or
 amalgamation has taken place."  (The New Cratylus; or Contributions Toward
 a More Accurate Knowledge of the Greek Language. London.  From the second
 edition, 1850:14.)

And geologists may recognize the allusion in this linguistic title:

 Johnes, Arthur James. 1843.  Philological Proofs of the Original Unity and
 Recent Origin of the Human Race, Derived from a Comparison of the Languages
 of Asia, Europe, Africa, and America; being an inquiry how far the
 differences in the languages of the globe are referrible to causes now in
 operation.  London: John Russell Smith.  (Second edition, 1846.)

The allusion is to Charles Lyell, whose influential Principles of Geology
(1830-33) was titled in full: Principles of Geology, being an attempt to
explain the former changes of the earth's surface, by reference to causes now
in operation. "Causes now in operation" is the idea behind the geological
principle of "uniformitarianism" or "actualism", which was applied widely in
linguistics at the time.  There is even a recent historical monograph on
linguistic uniformitarianism:

 Christy, Craig.  1983.  Uniformitarianism in Linguistics.  Amsterdam: John
 Benjamins.  (Studies in the History of the Language Sciences, vol. 31.)

If anyone comes across conscious applications of similar geological ideas in
fields other than linguistics I would be interested to hear about them.

Bob O'Hara, Darwin-L list owner

Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu)
Center for Critical Inquiry and Department of Biology
100 Foust Building, University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:21>From ARKEO4@FENNEL.WT.UWA.EDU.AU  Sun Sep  5 19:55:51 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 8:58:41 +0800 (SST)
From: ARKEO4@FENNEL.WT.UWA.EDU.AU
Subject: RE: Geology and Language, and a Darwin-L Update
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

 Dave Rindos signing in from Perth, Western Australia.  I must add my
voice to the others who pointed out what a nice little tradition seems to
be developing here with the various "introduction" postings: it brings a
real human touch to the list, and helps reassure me that communication is
not going out into the ether.  Perhaps the list-owner might consider a
passing mention of it in the initial posting to new subscribers??

 The focus of all of my research (some would say my "compulsion") is the
development and application of a robust, phenotypically based, Darwinian
approach to cultural systems.  I have a written a bit on the topic (and
quite relevant to some of the other intro's) much of my theoretical
perspective has been developed in terms of the origin of agricultural
systems.  I also have been working a bit on the problem of the origin of
human cultural modes of transmission itself (the "culture problem"), with
an emphasis on the question "why should natural selection have favoured a
genetic system which brings about phenotypic (culturally based) modes for
the intergenerational tranmission of adaptive behaviours?" Right now, I
am involved in a series of papers on the initial colonization of Australia,
looking to the types of cultural systems which would favour colonization
(the "mode" question) and the time scales for such events (the "tempo"
business).  Here, I have the more or less final draft of MS which attempts
to apply the general model developed to the Clovis of the New World.  If
anybody out there is interested in commenting, please mail me and I would
love to send you a copy.  The model's general predictions (that a
"K-minimising" cultural tradition will first colonise continents) *seems*
to fit the Clovis pretty well.  The general model could also be sent to
those interested in the larger issue of r/K seletion in cultural systems
and the problems of initial colonisations.

 Until a few months ago, I was working as a Lecturer in Archaeology at
the University of Western Australia (don't even get me STARTED on THAT
topic), and at the moment I am in the final stages of getting a Research
Institute of the ground.  Western Australia is pretty much terra incognita
in terms of both ethnography and archaeology.  We have a land area some 1/3
the size of the continental US, with only a very small handfull of
archaeologists and anthropologists working in the state.  The first classes
in archaeology were offered here in the 1970's.  The archaeology department
at the University opened in 1989.  It lost Departmental status last year
and its total closure seems imminent.

 Even putting all of those problems aside, this region has fantastic
reseach potential in all the historical fields (European contact in the far
north of the state occurred in living memory) and I believe that we shall
have an internationally significant research programme going in the very
near future.  Anybody interested in doing work here (this is also VERY
relevant to some other intro's which spoke of human adaptation to desert
regions!) should feel free to contact me regarding the possibilities for
future research through the Institute.  {end of advertisement :{)  }

With best regards and high hopes for the future of this list,

Dave

*************************************************************************
*	 Dave Rindos				20 Herdsmans Parade	*
* 	 RINDOS@FENNEL.WT.UWA.EDU.AU		Wembley  6014 	*
* 	 Ph:  +61 9 387 6281  (GMT+8)		Western Australia	*
* 	 FAX: +61 9 380 1051  (USEDT+12)	AUSTRALIA		*
*************************************************************************

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:22>From robg@fossil.Berkeley.EDU  Sun Sep  5 20:03:59 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 18:04:55 PDT
From: robg@fossil.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Guralnick)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Introduction

    Hi.  My name is Robert Guralnick, a first year graduate student
in Integrative Biology. Darwin-L's existence is quite serendipitous
for me personally.  I am starting my graduate career in a unique
position.  I majored as an undergraduate in Psychology with an
emphasis in Social Psychology.  I was interested in how group processes
change when events, both momentous and small happen.  However, I was
given the chance to pursue work as basically an "evolutionist" at
Berkeley, and jumped at the chance, because evolution to me is
something that exists outside the realm of any one discipline.  As you
can see, Darwin-L seems like a natural place to be spending some time
during the next phase of my life.
	I already recognize many people who I have met both in person
and on Internet and look forward to meeting all the rest of you.  I
guess I should close by saying that while we are all discussing
evolution, it will be great fun also watching how this discussion itself
"evolves".  As well, I will mention I am particularly interested in
"evolution" in artificial systems like programming, or, say in
cultural systems like "creativity", as well as in biological
organisms.

Sincerely,

Robert Guralnick

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:23>From SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU  Sun Sep  5 21:58:46 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 23:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU
Subject: Re: A tid bit following David P.'s note
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

  This idea has a remarkably familiar ring from two different dirrections.
More year ago than I care to admit we had a question about a tree falling
in a wilderness without a human witness. Therefore, did it make a noise as
it fell? At the second level the idea of taxonomy being language based and
arbritrary is often discussed in the language section of most cultural
anthropology texts. At a higher level there is a fine article by Count and
Bowles entitled "Fact and Theory in Anthropology" which would fit this
question nicely. If you want the full citation I can get it for you later
in the week.
  Ray, EKU
  soslewis@acs.eku.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:24>From rich@udlapvms.pue.udlap.mx  Sun Sep  5 22:01:50 1993

From: rich@udlapvms.pue.udlap.mx (Profr. Paul Rich (RI ))
Subject: Singing In from Mexico
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 21:07:00 -0600 (CST)

Encantado de conocerie.

Hello to fellow Darwin List members from Mexico.

I am Professor of International Relations at The University of the
Americas in Cholula, a town claiming to be the oldest inhabited site in
the Americas and adjacent to Puebla.

We are just two yours from Mexico City, in a wonderful setting, with a
grat library and excellent computer facilities -- so if you are this way,
it is a must place to visit.

My own interests are holistic: I am a Fellow of the Royal Anthropological
Institute and member of the Royal Archaeological Institute as well as the
Archaeologial Institute of America, but have strong involvement in history
and political science. So I am looking forward to our discussions.

Academic trivia: AB and EDM Harvard. PhD W.Australia. Books include
_The Invasions of the Gulf_, _Chains of Empire_, _Elixir of Empire_,
_Stanford Patriarchs_,sections in _Secret Texts_ and _Benefits Bestowed_,
editor of a number of texts. Pi Lambda Theta. Delta Phi Epsilon. Fellow of
Royal Historical Society, Royal Geographical, Geographical Society of
India, Royal Asiatic. College of Preceptors, Company of Military
Historians. governor, Manchester College, Oxford University.

Buenas noches.

Paul Rich
The University of the Americas

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:25>From SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU  Sun Sep  5 22:05:02 1993

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1993 23:07:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU
Subject: Re: What's it all about?!!
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

  Hello Brenda:  Like you I am a new subscriber but am also interested in
historical anthropology, having training in both disciplines.
  Ray Lewis, EKU
  soslewis@acs.eku.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:26>From tclarke@uoguelph.ca  Sun Sep  5 22:57:31 1993

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 23:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Clarke <tclarke@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Re: Ray on Taxonomy
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

 I'm not too sure whether you are talking about taxonomy in terms
 of natural history or not (this list seems to have been taken over
 by the cultural anthropologists) but I would argue that in the case
 of living organisms the cladistical taxonomy of a group of organisms
 has nothing to do with the human language or viewpoint, as long as
 we get the phylogeny right.  (human bias can introduce mistakes into
 the phylogeny, but the interrelationships between the organisms exist
 independant of human perception.  A correct phylogeny exists, its just
 a matter of figuring it out.)

 The only qualifier I would make is that the base unit of taxonomy,
 the species, is often an arbitrary construct based on what information
 is available at the time on the organisms in question.  The problems
 presented by the blackfly species complexes and hybridization in
 insects to taxonomists are examples of how one persons species is
 not necessarily anothers.  This doesn't (or shouldn't) really affect
 the phylogeny of the organisms - it just complicates the discovery of
 that phylogeny.

   -Anax-

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:27>From bdenzler@acpub.duke.edu  Mon Sep  6 00:20:08 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 01:17:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brenda Denzler <bdenzler@acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

On Sun, 5 Sep 1993, Robert Guralnick wrote:

> emphasis in Social Psychology.  I was interested in how group processes
> change when events, both momentous and small happen.  However, I was
> given the chance to pursue work as basically an "evolutionist" at
> Berkeley, and jumped at the chance, because evolution to me is
> something that exists outside the realm of any one discipline.  As you

> "evolves".  As well, I will mention I am particularly interested in
> "evolution" in artificial systems like programming, or, say in
> cultural systems like "creativity", as well as in biological
> organisms.

Robert:

I have been interested in "change" and how that occurs for several years,
but have been unable to pursue much in the way of studies.  Clearly, I'm
in over my head here.  Your comments interest me, however.  I was left
wondering if "change" is necessarily the same thing as "evolution"?  Can
systems change without evolving?  What kind of systems?  Organic?
Chemical (assuming that chemical systems evolve--??)?  Cultural?
Psychological?  Ideological?

Just asking!

Brenda

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:28>From SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU  Mon Sep  6 09:46:00 1993

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 10:48:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hi Brenda: Like you I am not certain that change is evolution or is it
social evolution? Anyway I am 61 years old and can recall when it was
considered highly immoral for women to wear lipstick and makeup or smoke
in public.  Only "bad" girls or prostitutes went into bars and lounges
without a male escort in my area. Boys were sissies if they danced and
there were a number of other things which are greatly different today.
Girls who drove were cautious unlike today's sweet young things who buzz
down the interstate at 75+ mph. When the change or social evolution took
place I could not date but this was the situation in East central Ohio
in 1949-55. This could have been a regional situation but I suspect it was
national in scope.  Perhaps some others may have some ideas on the subject.
  Ray, EKU
  soslewisacs.eku.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:29>From b-ogilvie@uchicago.edu  Mon Sep  6 09:47:43 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 09:49:53 -0600
To: Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: b-ogilvie@uchicago.edu (Brian W Ogilvie)
Subject: Another introduction (antiquarian studies)

Howdy there. Since everyone seems to be introducing themselves, I thought I
would chime in. I'm a third-year graduate student in history of
science/intellectual history working at the moment on the history of
antiquarian studies in the sixteenth and early seventeenth
century--particularly the use of physical evidence (esp. coins) in
historical studies. I would be happy to hear from anyone else interested
in, or working on, antiquarianism or related fields.

-Brian
---
Brian W. Ogilvie
<b-ogilvie@uchicago.edu> OR <ogil@uchicago.edu>
Department of History, University of Chicago

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:30>From jbenjafi@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA  Mon Sep  6 10:12:21 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:06:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "John G. Benjafield" <jbenjafi@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>
Subject: Another introduction
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Greetings from the Niagara Peninsula!

I am a psychologist at Brock University, which is located near Niagara
Falls. My research concerns the relation between historical and
psychological properties of words and proverbs.  I am also writing a
history of psychology.

Thus far this group has discussed material relevant to all three of my
interests - psychology, language and history. I am very encouraged by this,
and look forward to future developments.

John Benjafield
jbenjafi@spartan.ac.BrockU.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:31>From thielr@umoncton.ca  Mon Sep  6 10:19:27 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 12:17:02 +0400 (AST)
From: Robert Thiel <thielr@umoncton.ca>
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

(Ray)
Just a comment. I'm about 4 years older than you (just retired). I grew up
in Southern California, but I don't remember the things you mention as
being 'immoral.' Maybe geography has something to do with it.
My parents smoked, had martinis before supper, and my mom used lipstick.
I'm thinking of the '40's. All their friends did more or less the same.
I'm referring to upper/lower middle class Californians.
-Bob

Robert Thiel        Internet: thielr@umoncton.ca
Universite de Moncton
Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada

_______________________________________________________________________________

<1:32>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Mon Sep  6 11:02:57 1993

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 12:09:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: "Evolution", "change", etc.
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

A few short notes regarding the terms "evolution", "change", "development",
and their allies: These terms will probably appear frequently here, and it is
worthwhile to reflect on them carefully.  There are many words that refer to
change.  The technical senses of these words are often unfamiliar to people
in different fields, and these technical senses have changed over time also,
of course.  In the mid-19th century and before, the term "evolution" was
primarily an embryological term referring to the individual development of an
organism.  Thus Louis Agassiz, an arch-ememy of Darwin, could say "Of course
evolution occurs", by which he meant the embryological development of
individuals is an important phenomenon in nature.  Darwin himself hardly ever
uses the word "evolution" -- he speaks of "descent with modification" or
"transmutation" most of the time.  The word "evolution" (actually, the word
"evolved") occurs only once in the _Origin of Species_.  "Evolution" as a
term for the historical development of biological species was popularized
primarily by Herbert Spencer (historians of science may correct me here), a
prolific writer and advocate of an almost theological view under which the
whole universe is engaged in a process of universal progress ("evolution").
Spencer's views are extremely far removed from those of evolutionary
biologists today, and he has vanished from the scientific landscape.

"Evolution" today -- that is, the process of biological evolution in the
technical sense -- is distinctive because it is a _populational_ process that
is dependent upon _variation and selection_.  In this technical sense of
biological evolution, individuals are not the things that evolve (though they
do change); it is populations that evolve, and they do so over a period of
generations as the varying individuals that make them up are replaced.  Try
as we might, you and I will never evolve, because you and I are not
populations.  Most evolutionary biologists would probably be comfortable
using the term "evolution" for other processes of change that are
populational and depend upon variation and selection: linguistic "evolution"
is one such process.  Some philosophers of science have also spoken of
intellectual traditions as evolving in the technical sense.  One of the most
thorough expositions of this idea may be found in Stephen Toulmin's book
_Human Understanding_ (1972).  Toulmin's book is a good example of how the
technical notion of evolution can be extended, because it is not a facile
argument about "everything changes and evolves", but is rather a detailed
exposition of the process of diversification in intellectual communities
(populations) written by someone who really understands the biological
process of evolution.  The general topic of populational change in
intellectual communities is sometimes called "evolutionary epistemology".

Bob O'Hara, Darwin-L list owner

Robert J. O'Hara (darwin@iris.uncg.edu)
Center for Critical Inquiry and Department of Biology
100 Foust Building, University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, North Carolina 27412 U.S.A.

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<1:33>From mahaffy@dordt.edu  Mon Sep  6 11:40:31 1993

Subject: Another introduction
To: Address Darwin list <Darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:42:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Prof. James Mahaffy" <mahaffy@dordt.edu>

My name is James Mahaffy.  I now live in the Midwest, but grew up
in East Africa (Eritrea).  My wife comes from Smithers, BC so I was
happy to see a few people from North of the border in the group.

Much of my professional activity is teaching at Dordt College, a
smaller liberal arts college in NW Iowa.  For those of you that
never heard of us, we are sort of a little sister to Calvin or Hope
in Michigan.  I teach the large non-major introduction to biology
and a smattering of other courses including Paleontology and Plant
Morphology.  My research interests are paleoecology of
Carboniferous plants mainly using miospores as a tool.

I also have a strong interest in philosophy of science, which is
one of the reasons I subscribed to this list.  I have a feeling
that too many of the philosophers of science are humanity types or
more theoretical science types (mathematicians or physicists) and
not enough from the more empirical biology or geology side of the
fence and doing that type of science.
--
James F. Mahaffy       e-mail: mahaffy@dordt.edu
Biology Department       phone: 712 722-6279
Dordt College        FAX 712 722-1198
Sioux Center, Iowa 51250

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<1:34>From schroede@denr1.igis.uiuc.edu  Mon Sep  6 12:30:35 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 12:32:38 -0500
From: Erich Schroeder <schroede@denr1.igis.uiuc.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: darwin-l self-intro

So I figured I might as well, too.

My name is Erich Schroeder, and I am a dissertator from Texas A&M University
in historical archaeology.  My BS is in geology from the Univ of Minnesota-
Duluth and I have a MA from U of Wisconsin-Madison in archaeology.  For the
past 10 years or so I have worked in Illinois, mostly at the Illinois State
Museum.

My dissertation is based on the historical archaeolgical portion of a highway
project, but has shifted to a duel emphasis on historical demography and
settlement patterns during the frontier period of central Illinois (1820-1870)
approximatly.  I, like one of the other introducees, was drawn by the
"historical anthropology" mention in the adversitising post.

Also, my present job at the State Museum is to work with the GIS-based Faunmap
project.  This is a project that has collected nearly 3000 pleistocene and
holocene faunal assemblages from the 48 United States, and my job is to help
with the display and spatial analysis of the distribtion of taxa through
time.  I'll be interested in reading what goes on here, although I tend to
be a lurker.

Erich Schroeder
schroede@denr1.igis.uiuc.edu
Illinois State Museum GIS laboratory

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<1:35>From I39NIALL%ETSU.BITNET@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU  Mon Sep  6 14:32:27 1993

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 13:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Niall Shanks <I39NIALL%ETSU.BITNET@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Hello
To: darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: East Tennessee State University

Greetings from the hills of Tennessee.  My name is Niall Shanks.  I am an
assistant prof of philosophy here at East Tennessee State University.  I am
interested in the history and philosophy of science -- particularly Darwin's
theory of evolution (from a historical and methodological standpoint).

I am currently writing a book with my colleague, Hugh LaFollette, on the
topic of the methodology and ethics of animal experimentation, with special
emphasis on evolutionary arguments.  (I'm neither an animal activist nor
a vivisectionist, by the way).

I am interested in the relationship between science and religion, and in
particular the on-going wars between evolutionary scientists and
creationists.

I do not have a mere theoretical interest in the theory of evolution, I also
use the history of the evolution of evolutionary thinking as a teaching tool
in my courses on introductory philosophy.  It has certainly led to some
animated classroom discussions. (My university is a mere 90 minute drive
from Dayton, Tennessee, home of the Scopes trial).

I have a side interest in chaos theory and its connections to, and implications
for the biological theory of evolution.
Cheers,
Niall Shanks
i39niall@etsu.bitnet

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<1:36>From CRAYJOHN@CC.UTAH.EDU  Mon Sep  6 14:57:41 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 13:45 MST
From: CRAYJOHN@CC.UTAH.EDU
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Is this discussion evidence that socal evolution, too, takes place
differently in different populations sometimes living cheek-by-
jowl?  My midwestern grandmother, who came from a prominent
Milwaukee family and married into a prominent Indiana family,
wore lipstick, drank during prohibition (of course, her parents
owned a brewery), and drove like a demon.  This was during the
first two decades of the century.  She was at least as wild as
I ever was, and traveled in much more respectable circles
(professional, professorial, and political), at least in her 20's.

Kate

Katharine Coles
Department of English
Wesminster College of Salt Lake City
crayjohn@cc.utah.edu

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<1:37>From WILKR@ucs.indiana.edu  Mon Sep  6 16:23:47 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 16:25:53 EST
From: "Richard Wilk, Anthropology, 855-8162" <WILKR@ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: INTRODUCTION
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

I am Richard Wilk, a cultural anthropologist at Indiana University.
I was once a practicing archaeologist, working with Maya ruins in
Central America as well as at sites in Arizona, Spain and Israel.
I developed an interest in long-term cultural change, continuity
and discontinuity, alterity and identity. I practiced applied
anthropology for a time, working in public health, road construction,
water & sanitation, agricultural development & extension and
educational reform - mostly in Belize, where I have spent about
7 of the last 20 years. Now I find myself working on the
borderlands of economics, public culture and ethnohistory,
studying consumption and consumerism, household economics and
budgeting, and the ethics of practice.

I am not yet sure how my interests relate to those of other
people on this list.  At the moment it seems like a place to
ask some interesting questions and broaden my understandings.

Rick Wilk
Indiana University  812-855-8162

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<1:38>From bkk@lif.hi.is  Mon Sep  6 17:28:09 1993

From: bkk@lif.hi.is (Bjarni K. Kristjansson)
Subject: Intro
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 22:25:16 GMT

Hi there.  My name is Bjarni Kr. Kristjansson and I am still working on my
Bsc in University of Iceland.  My main interest is Marine ecology but I am
werry interested in Evolution and History of sience.
Kvedja fra Islandi
Bjarni

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<1:39>From robg@fossil.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Sep  6 17:48:56 1993

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 15:49:51 PDT
From: robg@fossil.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Guralnick)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change

	A great question has been raised!!! Is evolution somehow
different from change over time?  Are these terms synonymous?  It is
something that I hope generates lots of discussion.  Here is my
own take on the matter.  Evolution implies more than change over time;
it implies some kind of ordering of change.  In weaker moments, I
consider evolution a necessary outgrowth of information systems.  Does
evolution imply direction?  For example, we have no notion, even in
Biology, where it has been studied best, of de-evolution, while
change in time implies that we could go back to primitive states.
Well, more on this later.

Robert Guralnick
Dept. Of Integrative Biology
Berkeley, CA

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<1:40>From SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU  Mon Sep  6 18:29:36 1993

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1993 19:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: SOSLEWIS@ACS.EKU.EDU
Subject: Re: Evolution and Change
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Hi Robert:  Yes, you are probably correct about geography being a factor,
and that is why I asked that particular question. Ohio was and still is a
conservative state and in the Alleghenies it was probably more so. The hill
folk here in Kentucky are far more conservative than the Bluegrass section
and it is paleolithic compared with New York City. Fads and fashions hit
here about five years after their popularity on the East coast. Oh yes,
ours was a working class and farming community.
 Ray, EKU
  soslewis@acs.eku.edu

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Darwin-L Message Log 1: 1-40 -- September 1993          End