Darwin-L Message Log 15: 31–75 — November 1994

Academic Discussion on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L was an international discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences, active from 1993–1997. Darwin-L was established to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among scholars, scientists, and researchers in these fields. The group had more than 600 members from 35 countries, and produced a consistently high level of discussion over its several years of operation. Darwin-L was not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin, but instead addressed the entire range of historical sciences from an explicitly comparative perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical geography, historical anthropology, and related “palaetiological” fields.

This log contains public messages posted to the Darwin-L discussion group during November 1994. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.

The master copy of this log is maintained in the Darwin-L Archives (rjohara.net/darwin) by Dr. Robert J. O’Hara. The Darwin-L Archives also contain additional information about the Darwin-L discussion group, the complete Today in the Historical Sciences calendar for every month of the year, a collection of recommended readings on the historical sciences, and an account of William Whewell’s concept of “palaetiology.”

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DARWIN-L MESSAGE LOG 15: 31-75 -- NOVEMBER 1994
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_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:31>From mwinsor@epas.utoronto.ca  Sun Nov 13 08:14:47 1994

From: Mary P Winsor <mwinsor@epas.utoronto.ca>
Subject: The evolutionary push to smarts
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 09:13:50 -0500 (EST)

In response to the comment by J. A. Rivas
 " Human inteligence is a huge departure form the mean (primates) of a
 trait to levels where it is somehow "useless" (as long as "strugle for
 survival" goes) unless a runaway process is involved."

I am reminded of Darwin's answer to the question, why should giraffes
be so enormously tall?  It makes sense for them to be taller than any
other grazing animal, since it gives them access to leaves others
aren't eating, but they have taken it to a ridiculous extreme! The
answer is that the "struggle for existence" at the heart of natural
selection is not mostly a struggle between various species, but
between individuals, and is at its most intense within a species.  Because
of Malthusian population pressure, giraffes are competing with each
other. So if intelligence is an advantage, the proto-human being smarter
than its closest primate relation, having out-done that primate is no
reason our ancestors should have rested on their laurels.  There's
plenty of reason for change, as long as their is room for change,
within a species.
   I'm really responding to the comparison within primates.  But
   reasoning about selective advantage within a species is tricky, as
   Darwin knew and as Gould and Lewontin's classic "Spandrels of San
   Marcos" critique of extreme adapationism points out.  Darwin's
   theory does not claim that everything we can recognize as a
   character or feature is a direct product of natural selection.
   It may be a side effect of something else.
   Alfred Russel Wallace listed various features of humans, like
   musical and mathematical ability, which he said he could not
   imagine being explained by selective advantage.  To Darwin's
   distress, Wallace concluded that a cause must be sought in the
   spirit world.

Polly Winsor   mwinsor @epas.utoronto.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:32>From jacobsk@ERE.UMontreal.CA  Sun Nov 13 09:54:39 1994

From: jacobsk@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Ken JACOBS)
Subject: Re: The evolutionary push to smarts
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 10:53:05 -0500 (EST)

Polly Winsor writes:

> I am reminded of Darwin's answer to the question, why should giraffes
> be so enormously tall?  It makes sense for them to be taller than any
> other grazing animal, since it gives them access to leaves others
> aren't eating, but they have taken it to a ridiculous extreme! The
> answer is that the "struggle for existence" at the heart of natural
> selection is not mostly a struggle between various species, but
> between individuals, and is at its most intense within a species.  Because
> of Malthusian population pressure, giraffes are competing with each
> other. So if intelligence is an advantage, the proto-human being smarter
> than its closest primate relation, having out-done that primate is no
> reason our ancestors should have rested on their laurels.  There's
> plenty of reason for change, as long as their is room for change,
> within a species.

	She then goes on to point out the `panglossian pitfall' as a reason
why this view of smartness's emergence has been treated cautiously.  I would
suggest another: Many today are uncomfortable with the notion of *intra-
specific* selection as the motor driving increased hominid intelligence,
preferring instead *inter-specific* models.  The reason IMHO has less to do
with the actual utility of the one model over the other than the politically
and ideologically significant fact that the inter-specific model allows
humankind to retain some sort of pan-specific homogeneity (= equality) with
respect to intelligence, while the former stresses a degree of variability
in cognitive funtioning within the species (whence the potential for
selection).  This latter view appears to undercut an egalitarian desideratum
--cf. the verbal clashes on several other lists to which some Darwin-Lers
are likely subscribed, as well as the Murray et al Travelling Medicine show
in/on various US media.

	While few would adopt the supernatural source for our aesthetic &
intellectual capacities favoured by Wallace (also cited by P. Winsor and
snipped by me here), it seems to me that very many today are as uncomfortable
as he was with the idea that our capacities in these realms arose by wholly
Darwinian means, particularly those involving intra-specific selection.

	Ken Jacobs
	Anthropologie
	U de Montreal  		jacobsk@ere.umontreal.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:33>From mdj@gac.edu  Mon Nov 14 10:46:09 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 10:45:50 -0600
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: mdj@gac.edu (Mark D. Johnson)
Subject: borrowing vs. genetic change

Dear D-L readers:
        I am curious about the notion of borrowing in language evolution.
Criticism of the Nostratic language construction suggest that it is ever
more difficult (withe its gresat age) to resolve borrowing from genetic
change in the language.
        However, I remember reading several years ago in Baudel's book that
the average 16th cent peasant likely saw at most, about 100 different
people in her/his lifetime.
        With evolution in technology also comes a great increase in the
ability to interact with other cultures/languages.
        Thus it seems likely that one could argue that the borrowing rate
in language change has increased markedly since the beginning of language.
By inference, this could downplay the importance of borrowing in the oldest
of languages.
        I suspect this is an argument used before: How has it been met? Do
people support it or disregard it?

Thanks

Mark

Mark D. Johnson
Department of Geology, Gustavus Adolphus College
800 W. College, St. Peter, MN 56082
mdj@gac.edu  (507) 933-7442

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:34>From mahaffy@dordt.edu  Mon Nov 14 11:01:37 1994

Subject: Some paleo lists
To: Address Darwin list <Darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>,
        Palaeobotany list <palaeobotany@vax.rhbnc.ac.uk>,
        dinosaur <dinosaur@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:02:42 -0600 (CST)
From: James Mahaffy <mahaffy@dordt.edu>

Folks,

	I know there are some of you that are interested in paleontology
lists. With Dr. Neuman's permission, I am passing on a post that lists
some he found.

--
James F. Mahaffy                   e-mail: mahaffy@dordt.edu
Biology Department                 phone: 712 722-6279
Dordt College                      FAX 712 722-1198
Sioux Center, Iowa 51250

Sender: micropal@ucmp1.Berkeley.EDU
From: "F. Neumann" <florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Palaeontology discussion lists

In replies to my posting about MicroPal other Internet discussion lists
of possible interest to palaeontologists were mentioned. The following
is a summary of the replies I received. Please note that this is not an
exhaustive list; more information can be found in Bill Thoen's
compilation ORES.TXT (Online Resources for Earth Scientists), available
via anonymous ftp from ftp.csn.org/COGS.ores.txt. The latest update, by
Bill Thoen and Ted Smith, should be available by December 1 (for more
information contact Ted Smith at ted.smith@cdmg.uucp.netcom.com).

COCCOLITHS
----------

    Nannofossil and nannoplankton

    LIST ADDRESS: coccoliths@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE COCCOLITHS <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@morgan.ucs.mun.ca

DIATOM
------

    Diatoms

    LIST ADDRESS: diatom-l@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE DIATOM-L <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu

DINOSAUR
--------

    Dinosaurs

    LIST ADDRESS: dinosaur@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE DINOSAUR <Your Name>" to
                  listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu

GEOLOGY
-------

    Anything related to earth sciences.

    LIST ADDRESS: geology@ptearn.cc.fc.ul.pt
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE GEOLOGY <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@ptearn.cc.fc.ul.pt

MICROPAL
--------

    MicroPal is an electronic bulletin board for micropaleontology.

    LIST ADDRESS: micropal@ucmp1.berkeley.edu
    MODERATOR: Jere Lipps (jlipps@ucmp1.berkeley.edu)
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE MICROPAL <Your Name>" to
                  listproc@ucmp1.berkeley.edu

PALCLIME
--------

    Paleoclimate, Paleoecology  for late Mesozoic & early Cenozoic
    periods

    LIST ADDRESS: palclime@sivm.si.edu
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE PALCLIME <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@sivm.si.edu

PALEOLIM
--------

    Paleolimnology  Forum

    LIST ADDRESS: paleolim@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
    MODERATOR: Tom Whitmore (whitmore@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu)
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE PALEOLIM <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

PALEONET
--------

    PaleoNet is a group of linked listservers, gopher holes, www
    pages, and anonymous ftp sites that provide the
    paleontological community a means whereby its members can
    communicate with others.

    LIST ADRESS: paleonet@nhm.ac.uk
    MODERATORS: Norman MacLeod (N.MacLeod@nhm.ac.uk) &
                Rich Lane (HRLane@hou.amoco.com)
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE PALEONET" to
                  listserver@nhm.ac.uk

POLLEN-SWEDEN
-------------

    List members will receive pollen reports prepared by the
    Palynological Laboratory of the Swedish Museum of Natural
    History. These reports are presently restricted to the
    Stockholm region. The list is also open for discussion about
    both the reports and the activities of the Palynological
    Laboratory.

    LIST ADDRESS: pollen-sweden@nrm.se
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE POLLEN-SWEDEN <Your Name>" to
                  mailserv@nrm.se

POLPAL
------

    A bulletin board for general exchange of information, news,
    views, questions and answers in POLLINATION & PALYNOLOGY and
    related disciplines.

    LIST ADDRESS: polpal-l@uoguelph.ca
    MODERATOR: jmcgarry@uoguelph.ca
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE POLPAL-L <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@uoguelph.ca

QUATERNARY
----------

    Canadian Research in Quaternary Science

    LIST ADDRESS: quaternary@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
    MODERATOR: Dave Liuerman (dgl@zeppo.geosurv.gov.nf.ca)
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE QUATERNARY <Your Name>" to
                  listserver@morgan.ucs.mun.ca

ROCKS-AND-FOSSILS
-----------------

    The rocks-and-fossils list welcomes amateur and professional
    rockhounds and fossil enthusiasts world-wide.

    LIST ADDRESS: rocks-and-fossils@world.std.com
    MODERATOR: Sharon Shea (sshea@world.std.com)
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE ROCKS-AND-FOSSILS" to
                  majordomo@world.std.com

VRTPALEO
--------

    The Vertebrate Paleontology Community discussion list.

    LIST ADDRESS: vrtpaleo@vm.usc.edu
    MODERATOR: ???
    TO SUBSCRIBE: Send "SUBSCRIBE VRTPALEO <Your Name>" to
                  listserv@vm.usc.edu

--
  Florin Neumann
  florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:35>From mdj@gac.edu  Mon Nov 14 11:28:22 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:28:11 -0600
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: mdj@gac.edu (Mark D. Johnson)
Subject: kaka

Does anyone know of the origin of the word 'kaka' as a word refering to
excrement. I know of English, Spanish, Russian, and Swedish speakers that
use this word as a slang term for excrement. Anyone know of its origin and
the reason or it's wide dispersal?
Does it have any relation to cake or cookie?

Seriously,

Mark

Mark D. Johnson
Department of Geology, Gustavus Adolphus College
800 W. College, St. Peter, MN 56082
mdj@gac.edu  (507) 933-7442

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:36>From MNHAN125@SIVM.SI.EDU  Mon Nov 14 11:47:22 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:45:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gary P. Aronsen" <MNHAN125@sivm.si.edu>
Subject: Darwin's House
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

     Hello again, cybernauts! I am travelling for the first time to London,
England, to meet my wife who is hard at work on elephant phylogeny at the
British Museum. I will arrive on 13 Dec., and leave 21 Dec. It's a short
trip, I know, but all I can afford.

     One of my goals on this trip is to make a pilgrimage to the home of
Charles Darwin, which I am told is within a reasonable distance from London.
I've looked in a few travel guides, but they don't give me enough info (enough
being none!). Can anybody tell me how to get there from London, where it's
located exactly, and if it is even open at this holiday time of year? It is a
mecca for this lowly grad student, and a stop that I must make to make the
trip complete.

     Also, if anyone can give me other sites of interest to a student of
evolution and anatomy (outside of the Royal Philosophical Society, the Museum,
etc.), I'd be happy to know them as well. And any travle tips. Like cheap eats.

                                                Tanks for the phylogenies,
                                                Gary P. Aronsen
                                                MNHAN125@SIVM.SI.EDU

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:37>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Mon Nov 14 13:13:22 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: November 14 -- Today in the Historical Sciences
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

NOVEMBER 14 -- TODAY IN THE HISTORICAL SCIENCES

1797: CHARLES LYELL is born at Kinnordy, Forfarshire, Scotland.  After making
preparations for a career in law, Lyell's interests will turn increasingly
toward geology, and his _Principles of Geology_ (1830-1833) will become one
of the foundational works on the historical sciences published during the
nineteenth century: "When we study history, we obtain a more profound insight
into human nature, by instituting a comparison between the present and former
states of society.  We trace the long series of events which have gradually
led to the actual posture of affairs; and by connecting effects with their
causes, we are enabled to classify and retain in the memory a multitude of
complicated relations -- the various peculiarities of national character --
the different degrees of moral and intellectual refinement, and numerous other
circumstances, which, without historical associations, would be uninteresting
or imperfectly understood.  As the present condition of nations is the result
of many antecedent changes, some extremely remote and others recent, some
gradual, others sudden and violent, so the state of the natural world is the
result of a long succession of events, and if we would enlarge our experience
of the present economy of nature, we must investigate the effects of her
operations in former epochs."  (_Principles of Geology_, vol. 1, 1830.)

Today in the Historical Sciences is a feature of Darwin-L, an international
network discussion group for professionals in the historical sciences.  For
more information about Darwin-L send the two-word message INFO DARWIN-L to
listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu, or gopher to rjohara.uncg.edu (152.13.44.19).

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:38>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Mon Nov 14 16:45:04 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 17:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: Controversies in historical linguistics (fwd from LINGUIST)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

This message about controversies in historical linguistics recently
appeared on LINGUIST.  I thought it might be of interest to some of
our subscribers here on Darwin-L.

Bob O'Hara, Darwin-L list owner
darwin@iris.uncg.edu

--begin forwarded message--------------

Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 14:57:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Schaufele <fcosws@firefly.prairienet.org>
Subject: Sum: controversies in historical linguistics

A while back, in LINGUIST 5-1033, I posted the following request:

> The recent discussion of the Altaic Hypothesis got me thinking about the
> possibility of putting together a seminar on controversies in historical
> linguistics.  Judging from the extent the discussion in LINGUIST clari-
> fied some of my own ideas and understandings of comparative and recon-
> structive methodology, it occured to me that one could learn a lot about
> how to 'do' historical linguistics by studying discussions of controver-
> sial hypotheses, both the arguments brought forward by their (responsible
> or reputable) proponents and the counterarguments presented by the
> critics.  So I'm going to try to develop such a seminar, and am solici-
> ting suggestions.  I'm looking for the following:
>
> (1) Suggestions of actual controversies that have been heavily discussed
> in historical-linguistic literature.  I'm interested in controversies
> that are 'raging' now (e.g., the Nostratic Hypothesis) and ones that have
> been pretty much settled (e.g., the Laryngeal Hypothesis in IE), as well
> as anything in between, as long as there's a fair amount of good, solid
> scholarly discussion of it in print.
>
> (2) Bibliographical references on the above.

Several people mentioned issues related to the classification of
languages of North America.  Elizabeth A. Cain-Perkins (Elizabeth.A.Cain-
Perkins@Dartmouth.edu) offered me a bibliography on the subject.  Pat
Crowe (V187EF4Y@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu), who is writing a dissertation in
anthropology on topics having to do with the Iroquois nations, mentioned

> Some Iroquoian-related topics of controversy (at one time or
> another) are the discussion around a century ago as to whether
> Cherokee was related to the Iroquois, Huron, and Tuscarora
> languages (J.N.B. Hewitt had a fair amount to say about this);
> the question of Macro-Siouan (see Sapir and Wallace Chafe for
> the pro side); and more recently the issue has come up about
> more distant relationships.

Suzanne Kemmer <kemmer@ruf.rice.edu> mentioned

> the classification of the languages of Africa.  Geert Dimmendal's
> review of Denning and Kemmer "On Language: Selected Writings of
> Joseph H. Greenberg" (the review's in Language, 1993 or 1994)
> discussed some of the reactions to the Greenberg classification
> that came out at the time, which were pretty outraged.  I think
> Paul Newman and others have documented the slowly evolving reac-
> tion to the African classification.

Kirk Belnap <belnapk@yvax.byu.edu> mentioned

> the still hotly debated issue (in Arabic linguistics) of the
> origins of the modern Arabic dialects.
>
> Miller, Ann M.  1986.  'The Origin of the Modern Arabic Seden-
>       tary Dialects: an Evaluation of Several Theories' Al-
>       'Arabiyya 19(1-2):47-74.
> Versteegh, Kees.  1984.  Pidginization and Creolization: the
>       Case of Arabic.

Jeff von Munkwitz-Smith <j-von@mailbox.mail.umn.edu>, who is working on a
dissertation on this subject, says

> How about the influence of Dravidian languages on Old Indo-
> Aryan?  It's been going on a long time and sparked some inte-
> resting side debates about the nature of "proof" in historical
> reconstruction.  On one side there are folks like Burrow, Eme-
> neau, and Kuiper and on the other, Thieme and Hans Hock.
>
> Burrow, T.  1955.  The Sanskrit Language
> Emeneau, M.  1962.  'Bilingualism and Social Borrowing' Procee-
>       dings of the American Philological Society 106.
> Hock, H.  1975.  'Substratum Influence on (Rig-Vedic) Sanskrit'
>       Studies in the Linguistic Sciences 5.
> Kuiper, F.  1967.  'The Genesis of a Linguistic Area' Indo-Iranian
>       Journal 10.
> Thieme, P.  1955.  Review of Burrow 1955.  Language 31.

And Bernard Comrie <comrie@mizar.usc.edu> directed me to

> [a] controversy concerning the relation between Kamchadal
> (Itelmen) and Chukotian (i.e. Chukchi, Koryak, and other
> closely related languages)
>
> Comrie, Bernard.  1980.  'The Genetic Affiliation of
>       Kamchadal: some Morphological Evidence' International
>       Review of Slavic Linguistics 5:109-120.
> Worth, Dean.  1962.  'La place du kamtchadal parmi les
>       langues soi-disant paleosiberiennes' Orbis 11:579-599.

Thanks very much to all who responded.  I'm open to further suggestions,
if anybody out there has any to offer.

Sincerely,
Steven

Dr. Steven Schaufele
712 West Washington
Urbana, IL  61801
217-344-8240
fcosws@prairienet.org

--end forwarded message----------------

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:39>From cliver@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu  Mon Nov 14 21:45:26 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 17:31:13 -1000
From: Robert Cliver <cliver@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
Subject: Re: The evolutionary push to smarts (fwd)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

With the initial disclaimer that I am not a professional in this field
(though I am a historian and have a strong interest in processes of
change and notions of progress and evolution) I would like to just make
one or two comments on the recent, very intriguing exchange between Mr.
Jacobs and Ms. Winsor. As regards the inter-species vs. intra-species
competitive path to evolution, I think Mr. Jacobs has an excellent point,
following Darwin as mentioned by Ms. Winsor. I think Richard Dawkins
book, The Selfish Gene demonstrates the importance of intra-species
competition and at the genetic level at that. But I am also interested to
hear what anyone thinks of a sort of complex systems approach to
evolution, along the lines of Stuart Kauffman at the Santa Fe Institute.
I find the notion of a complex dialectic between the gene and its
environment as mediated through various levels of construction and the
network of feedback thus set up between various individuals as well as
between various levels, at least an exciting conceptual approach which
could be used to expand the two (not mutually exclusive) competition models.
   As for the argument about the "homogeneity" of the species and its
relevance for issues of equality, it is, it seems to me, impossible to
take a stand
without necessarily limiting oneself to an incomplete view of the process
of evolution, the nature of intelligence, the notion of equality in a
given society/culture/mode of produciton/technology. It is obviously true
that competition (and cooperation and deception) within a species is of
vital importance for genetic evolution. It becomes a very complex
cultural, political and even technological issue when one enters the
realm of continuing human evolution after the advent of the big brain.
Again, I think a complex systems approach (which inevitably includes many
more forms of interaction than simple competition for limited resources)
would be of great service in examining processes of change in cultures
and societies (far more useful certainly than a "social Darwinist"
approach which inevitably simplifies and misrepresents Darwin's model). I
would argue that, in a cultural frame of reference, with a highly social
species, given the dominance of intellectual evolution (especially in
historical times), the inhomogeneities (?) in humans at the genetic level
are far less significant than differences in education, technology,
wealth, geography, and power and that to seek a genetic root for all this
is absurd in the extreme.
   A quick reaction to the discussion of Wallace's spiritual explanation
for culture, beauty, etc. as mentioned by both Mr. Jacob and Ms. Winson.
I like the "evolutionary side-step" model of William Calvin, if not a
"Throwing Madonna" exactly. This seems to fit well, not only with the
nature of the big brain as an excellent connection-making,
narrative-forming, temporal-sequencer, but also with the striking
creativity and "perpetual novelty" of nature. Consciousness as a
surprising "emergent property" of having so damn many neurons hooked up
in one network. But I've probably said too much already.
   I'd be very interested to hear some comments from professionals on the
coevolutionary, complex systems model of biological, intellectual and
cultural evolution. Thanks for your patience!
Robert Cliver
History
cliver@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:40>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu  Mon Nov 14 22:23:41 1994

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:23:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: New list on nautical archeology (fwd from Aegeanet)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

--begin forwarded message--------------

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:31:45 -0700 (MST)
From: "Dr. Richard Cassin" <cassin@santafe.edu>
Subject: NAUTARCH Inaugural Message

Dear Colleagues:

The nautical/maritime archaeology mailing list is now fully functional,
and available for appropriate posting. The address for posting to this
list is:

                        NAUTARCH@Santafe.Edu

I would like to thank Scott Yelich, System Administrator at the Santa Fe
Institute for setting up the list for us, and to the Institute itself for
its willingness to host NAUTARCH on its system. We also owe a debt of
gratitude to the Submerged Cultural Resources Unit of the U.S. National
Park Service for sponsoring development of NAUTARCH.

If you have previously received this message directly from NAUTARCH, you are
already subscribed to the list, and need do nothing further except read
-your mail and begin posting to the list.

If THIS is the only message you receive about the inauguration of NAUTARCH
(our announcement posted to the various relevant lists), you need to
subscribe.

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_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:41>From ncse@crl.com  Tue Nov 15 14:11:03 1994

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 12:09:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Eugenie C. Scott" <ncse@crl.com>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: The evolutionary push to smarts

Here is something to chew on:

Darwinian natural selection acts on individuals, and surely individuals
vary in intelligence.  Virtually everyone knows someone who is not as
quick as he/she is at grasping what's going on, at seeing solutions to
problems, etc.  Virtually every honest person also knows someone who is
*better* at these things, too!  Twin studies show that a considerable
portion of *individual* variance in intelligence is accountable through
genes (though as with any phenotype, the full variation is explained by
genes, environment, and the interaction between them.)

But assuming individual differences in intelligence which are at least
partly based on genetic differences, and the probability that variation in
intelligence (defined, again, as problem solving in the most general
sense) arose in the species through natural selection on individuals, we
have the opportunity to reflect on GROUP differences, of the sort being so
hotly discussed by proponents and opponents of *The Bell Curve.*

From an evolutionary point of view, we have at least two alternate
theoretical standpoints, neither, to my way of thinking, yet disproven.
The first one:  because so many biological (morphological) characteristics of
*H.sapiens* vary across space, and have high probability of being under
the control of natural selection (size, shape, color, hair texture, etc.)
why should intelligence be any different?  Why not assume that human
populations would also differ in intellectual ability?  And that these
differences would reflect at least some underlying genetic difference?

This point of view would argue that certain environments have a higher
selective potential to produce populations brighter, more adept, etc, but
there are some obvious difficulties operationalizing what they might be.
In a crude expression of this view, some European racists of the 19th
century argued that the cold European climate produced brighter,
harder-working peoples than the "easy-life" of Africa.  A modern racist
view promoted by Afrocentrists flips this over with the "Sun people" and
"Ice people", but it's basically the same thing.

The second theoretical perspective argues that indeed, morphological
variation occurs in populations of *H.sapiens*, but that because
intellectual ability is so *fundamental* to the adaptation of *H.sapiens*,
that it in fact does NOT vary from population to population.  An analogy
would be the human trait of bipedal locomotion.  Some individual humans
are "better" at bipedal locomotion than others (are faster, can jump
higher, etc.) but that bipedalism is such a critical aspect of the human
adaptation that one would not expect to see great differences from either
the individual to individual leel, or between populations.  All humans, to
be human, have to have some minimum amount of bipedal ability.  Similarly,
to be human, all humans have to have the ability to learn a language,
learn a culture, and cope mentally with challenges from their particular
environment -- whatever it is.

How does this translate to possibile populational differences?  Under the
second theoretical perspective, one would argue that since mental ability
is so critical to human beings' adaptation, we would expect that in any
reasonably large group of people we would find the full range of human
intellectual ability (or more properly, the full range of genetic
contribution to such abilities), even though some small, isolates may (as
in any drift situation) vary.  Thus to look at intellectual capacity of
Africans, Asians, Europeans, or even subdivisions of these geographical
races would be to see the full range of intelligence, simply because of
the importance of this quality to our HUMAN adaptation.

This perspective would argue against the proposal of *The Bell Curve* that
genetically-based populational differences in intellectual ability exist.
To be fully honest, though, we have to admit that both perspective one and
two are working views, neither of which has been disproven.  One reason
why, unfortunately, is the reluctance of funding agencies to fund research
in the field of behavior genetics that might actually disprove one or
another view.

Personally, I go with #2: it makes more sense from an evolutionary point
of view.  Should the definitive research be allowed to take place, I think
racists would be quite dissatisfied.  But the hyper-environmentalist view
seems to prevail, and we hear again the plaint that "such research
shouldn't even be done."

ECS

*****************************************************************
                   SUPPORT SCIENCE EDUCATION!

                        Eugenie C. Scott
                              NCSE
                         1328 6th Street
                     Berkeley, CA 94710-1404
                          510-526-1674
                        FAX: 510-526-1675
                         1-800-290-6006
                          ncse@crl.com
*****************************************************************

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:42>From delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu  Tue Nov 15 16:03:38 1994

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:03:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott DeLancey <delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: borrowing vs. genetic change

On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Mark D. Johnson wrote:

>         I am curious about the notion of borrowing in language evolution.
> Criticism of the Nostratic language construction suggest that it is ever
> more difficult (withe its gresat age) to resolve borrowing from genetic
> change in the language.
>         However, I remember reading several years ago in Baudel's book that
> the average 16th cent peasant likely saw at most, about 100 different
> people in her/his lifetime.

You're looking here at relatively high-density agricultural society, with
a fairly complex political organization.  This until recently was found
only in certain parts of the world, and even in those only for a small
part of the last 10,000-15,000 years, which is the time frame you have
to think in terms of when you're thinking about deep genetic relationships
like Nostratic.
	If you look at the situation with pre-agricultural societies,
it is often quite different.  In North America, for example, there is
clear evidence of huge amounts of borrowing among neighboring languages,
and evidence for at least some culture words (e.g. those connected with
the bow and arrow) spreading over thousands of miles.
	And there's no great mystery about how this might have come about.
Most communities, and therefore most linguistic communities, were
quite small, so that both peaceful (exchange of wives, trade,
ceremonial parties, gambling) and warlike (especially slave raiding)
relations were often with speakers of other languages, often distantly
if at all related.  Thus in many parts of the continent (and this is
documented for many other areas of the world) most people, or at least
most men, were bi- or multilingual, having some command of one or more
neighboring languages.  In Oregon and California, at least, I would
guess that few communities were composed exclusively of speakers of
only one language; most would include people who had married in or
been brought in as slaves from some other linguistic community.

>         With evolution in technology also comes a great increase in the
> ability to interact with other cultures/languages.

I think this may be an illusion.  The documented degree of multilingualism
found in the Amazon basin or upland Southeast Asia is certainly at least
as great as anything you're likely to find in a modern nation state.

>         Thus it seems likely that one could argue that the borrowing rate
> in language change has increased markedly since the beginning of language.
> By inference, this could downplay the importance of borrowing in the oldest
> of languages.

On the contrary, I suspect that the borrowing rate drops precipitously
as major imperial languages develop and spread.  You won't find a lot
of borrowing going on into modern Chinese, because there is a huge
population, covering a huge geographical area, which is (relatively)
homogeneously Chinese-speaking.  2,500 years ago, when Chinese was only
one of probably dozens of languages spoken in the same area, the
rate of borrowing was much greater.  (This is not speculation; Chinese
has substantial bodies of vocabulary borrowed from Tai, Austronesian,
and other languages 1,500-3,000 years ago).

Scott DeLancey			delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Department of Linguistics
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403, USA

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:43>From florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca  Tue Nov 15 19:01:11 1994

From: florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca (F. Neumann)
Subject: Re: kaka
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:03:45 -0500 (EST)

> Does anyone know of the origin of the word 'kaka' as a word refering to
> excrement. I know of English, Spanish, Russian, and Swedish speakers that
> use this word as a slang term for excrement.

Add Romanians to that list. As to its origins... I'm curious too!

--
  Florin Neumann
  florin@quartz.geology.utoronto.ca

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:44>From bruce_weber@qmail.fullerton.edu  Tue Nov 15 19:10:18 1994

Date: 15 Nov 1994 17:03:42 -0800
From: "Bruce Weber" <bruce_weber@qmail.fullerton.edu>
Subject: Re: Darwin's House
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

Down House in Downe is best reached by car since otherwise you will have to
take a combination of train, bus and taxi to get there.  If you wish, I can
send a xerox of a detailed map showing how to drive there.  Or you might want
to contact the curator of the Darwin Museum at Down House Ms. Solene Morris,
Darwin Museum, Down House, Downe Kent BR6 7JT.  Be sure to also visit the
Linnean Society at Brlington House Piccadilly (tel 171-434-4479), if you call
ahead you will be able to see a number of their treasures.  Let me know if you
want the map.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:45>From chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu  Tue Nov 15 19:48:11 1994

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 17:48:00 -0800
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu (Jason D. Patent)
Subject: "racism"

This posting is motivated by a comment by Eugenie Scott.  It is my hope
that this will not detract unduly from the scientific issues at hand, but I
feel I should point out what I see as a terminological error on the part of
Ms. Scott.  Her text:

>In a crude expression of this view, some European racists of the 19th
>century argued that the cold European climate produced brighter,
>harder-working peoples than the "easy-life" of Africa.  A modern racist
>view promoted by Afrocentrists flips this over with the "Sun people" and
>"Ice people", but it's basically the same thing.

What I object to is Ms. Scott's use of the term "racist" as applied to the
"Sun people" hypothesis.  Of course it all hinges on one's definition of
racism.  If we define racism as, for instance,  ideas/hypotheses/theories
which seek to establish natural superiority of one race over another, then,
yes, the "Sun people" concept is racist.  However, another view of racism
is, I believe, more informative:  racism is an inherently asymmetrical tool
of oppression, used by oppressors against the oppressed for the purposes of
maintaining the power/class structure of the status quo.  This reminds us
that the MOTIVATIONS for the "Sun people" theory (as scientifically invalid
as it may be), are revolutionary, in marked contrast to the 19th-Century
reactionary racism of the Europeans.

Thank you for your indulgence.  I hope now we can get back to the more
"Darwin-L"-y issues.

Jason D. Patent
Graduate Student
UC Berkeley Department of Linguistics
chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:46>From CRAVENS@macc.wisc.edu  Tue Nov 15 21:12:24 1994

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 21:10 CDT
From: Tom Cravens <CRAVENS@macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: kaka
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

One form or another of kak(k)a is widespread enough to reconstruct
*kakka as Proto Indo-European, according to standard sources. I.e.
Latin cacare (verb, 'defecate'), various forms in Celtic languages
(Old Irish caccaim), Slavic (Russian kakat), Armenian kakor 'manure',
etc. Presumably no relation to 'cake'; see Danish kage 'cake' vs.
kakke 'cack'.

Tom Cravens
cravens@macc.wisc.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:47>From rom@anbg.gov.au  Tue Nov 15 22:16:08 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 15:15:42 EST
From: rom@anbg.gov.au (Bob Makinson)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: kaka

Re derivation of KAKA (also Ca-Ca) meaning "excrement".

Mark D. Johnson wrote:

>>      Does anyone know of the origin of the word 'kaka' as a word
refering to excrement. I know of English, Spanish, Russian, and
Swedish speakers that use this word as a slang term for excrement.
>> Anyone know of its origin and the reason for its wide dispersal?
Does it have any relation to cake or cookie?

Mark:
Always look in the OED!

From the Latin caco, to void excrement or to defile with excrement,
and in turn from the Greek KAKKH (sorry I don't have Greek characters
available) meaning human ordure or dung.

In addition to OED, see also Cassels Latin dictionary, and Liddel &
Scott Greek-English Lexicon (abridged edition of 1986 is probably
the most accessible).  In the last, note the proliferation of terms
with negative connotations (but not with obviously excrement-related
meanings) that employ the KAK- root.

Hence no connection to cakes or cookies, at least not where I come
from!

The wide currency in West European languages presumably derives from
its usage in Latin (ancient and/or medieval).  In addition to the
languages listed by Mark, I know it to be common in colloquial
French.

Bob Makinson
rom@anbg.gov.au

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:48>From bowens@uidaho.edu  Wed Nov 16 01:11:57 1994

Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 23:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Owens <bowens@uidaho.edu>
Subject: Re: kaka
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

The spelling is "caca", and it is Spanish in origin.  No relationship to
pastry.  It is slang.

regards:

Bill Owens
Geography                                 \_/
University of Idaho                      /. .\  Wagtail/Lopear
                                         \ - /

                                 "There's no friend like a Canis"

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:49>From bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu  Wed Nov 16 06:13:11 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:14:25 EDT
From: "Bonnie Blackwell, Dept of Geology, (718) 997-3332"
      <bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: borrowing vs. genetic change

I am not a linguist, but I would question some of the recent comments
made about the lack of borrowing between languages in technological
societies.  If you look at modern French, Spanish, Italian, Mandarin,
Cantonese, Dutch, German, etc you see a number of words that are borrowed
between languages.  These words deal primarily with technological inventions.
Examples would include telephone, television, computer, camera, etc.  I would
hazard a guess that much borrowing goes on when there is no word in the
borrower's own language to use to convey the idea of the new <item/idea> in
their own language.  This certainly explains how english ended up borrowing
the word gaitsup (catchup/ketchup) from cantonese at the same time that it
borrowed the sauce bearing that name.  I also suspect that much of the
borrowing that can be documented from past societies also arises in
a similar fashion, driven by the need to communicate an idea.  if
the only way to convey that in one's own language is a very cumbersome
long phrase one will automatically begin to use the much shorter borrowed
word (i.e. catchup rather than salty tomato sauce).
bonn

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:50>From wcalvin@u.washington.edu  Wed Nov 16 06:13:28 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 04:13:21 -0800 (PST)
From: William Calvin <wcalvin@u.washington.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Directions to Down House, south of London

Alas I am traveling and don't have the posting I made up on the subject a
month ago, but from memory:  You can go my thye Natural History Museum
and pick up a folder with a map.  Open Wed-Sunday 1200-1630 and bank
holidays.  Take a train for Bromley South from Victoria Station, then the
#146 (??) bus for Downe.  A cab from the train station costs about 9
pounds each way.

WCalvin@U.Washington.edu
  William H. Calvin
  University of Washington, NJ-15
    Seattle WA 98195 USA

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:51>From mdj@gac.edu  Wed Nov 16 12:18:30 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:18:21 -0600
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: mdj@gac.edu (Mark D. Johnson)
Subject: Re: kaka

Thanks Tom for your answer. I have a girlfriend from Sweden with a nickname
of Kacka. Every other person I mention this to asks me if I know what it
means.

Mark

Mark D. Johnson
Department of Geology, Gustavus Adolphus College
800 W. College, St. Peter, MN 56082
mdj@gac.edu  (507) 933-7442

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:52>From idavidso@metz.une.edu.au  Wed Nov 16 13:48:30 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 06:48:02 +0700
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: idavidso@metz.une.edu.au (Iain Davidson)
Subject: Re: borrowing vs. genetic change

>I am not a linguist, but I would question some of the recent comments
>made about the lack of borrowing between languages in technological
>societies.  If you look at modern French, Spanish, Italian, Mandarin,
>Cantonese, Dutch, German, etc
>
>you see a number of words that are borrowed between languages.  These
>words deal primarily with technological inventions.  Examples would
>include telephone, television, computer, camera, etc.  I would hazard
>a guess that much borrowing goes on when there is no word in the borrower's
>own language to use to convey the idea of the new <item/idea> in their
>own language.  This certainly explains how english ended up borrowing the
>word gaitsup (catchup/ketchup) from cantonese at the same time that it
>borrowed the sauce bearing that name.  I also suspect that much of the
>borrowing that can be documented from past societies also arises in
>a similar fashion, driven by the need to communicate an idea.  if
>the only way to convey that in one's own language is a very cumbersome
>long phrase one will automatically begin to use the much shorter borrowed
>word (i.e. catchup rather than salty tomato sauce).
>bonn

There is an interesting phenomenon of power relations between societies of
potential borrowers and "borrowees" exemplified by this sort of borrowing.
I have a Basque friend who finds difficulty in publishing scientific papers
in Basque language because the language has not created many of the
necessary technical words.  It is quite difficult to borrow words because
the Basque community lives in two countries (as he says "for the moment")
which dominate Basques politically.  In consequence he publishes in the
language that is least offensive to him (of the country in which he does
not live).

Iain Davidson
Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale NSW 2351
AUSTRALIA
Tel (067) 732 441
Fax      (International) +61 67 73 25 26
                (Domestic)       067 73 25 26

I use Eudora on a Mac, if this helps you send complex documents.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:53>From OCACRA@orca.upe.ac.za  Wed Nov 16 14:41:40 1994

From: "Callum Anderson" <OCACRA@orca.upe.ac.za>
Organization:  University of Port Elizabeth
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:58:47 GMT+0200
Subject: Re: kaka

> Does anyone know of the origin of the word 'kaka' as a word refering to
> excrement. I know of English, Spanish, Russian, and Swedish speakers that
> use this word as a slang term for excrement. Anyone know of its origin and
> the reason or it's wide dispersal?
> Does it have any relation to cake or cookie?
>
> Seriously,
>
> Mark

Well Mark Seriously, here in South Africa the word kak is used in
the Afrikaans language.  I don't think it is a slang word, although it
is mostly used as an impolite term when refering to faeces.  The
Afrikaans language is largely derived from dutch, this may help shed
light on the word, origin.

Also serious :)
Callum

trms

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Callum Anderson              e-mail: ocacra@orca.upe.ac.za
Geology Department              fax: +27 41 5042573
University of Port Elizabeth    tel: +27 41 5042340
South Africa
----------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:54>From ncse@crl.com  Wed Nov 16 16:16:22 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:14:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "Eugenie C. Scott" <ncse@crl.com>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: "racism"

On Wed, 16 Nov 1994, Jason D. Patent wrote:

> What I object to is Ms. Scott's use of the term "racist" as applied to the
> "Sun people" hypothesis.  Of course it all hinges on one's definition of
> racism.  If we define racism as, for instance,  ideas/hypotheses/theories
> which seek to establish natural superiority of one race over another, then,
> yes, the "Sun people" concept is racist.

Indeed, that is the usual definition of racist, and the sense in which I
was using it.

> However, another view of racism
> is, I believe, more informative:  racism is an inherently asymmetrical tool
> of oppression, used by oppressors against the oppressed for the purposes of
> maintaining the power/class structure of the status quo.  This reminds us
> that the MOTIVATIONS for the "Sun people" theory (as scientifically invalid
> as it may be), are revolutionary, in marked contrast to the 19th-Century
> reactionary racism of the Europeans.

I have of course run into this "definition", but I respectfully submit
that holders of this view should reflect on some of the ramifications that
flow from it.  This is the view that "oppressed" people can't be racist
because they are oppressed, so it's OK for Afrocentrists to promote racism
because it really isn't racism.  I once heard Bernal make this claim at an
AAA meeting; the idea was that racism isn't racism if the practicers are
powerless.  But of course, basing superiority and inferiority on
hereditary traits *is* racism, and is to be deplored.

There is yet another issue, not to be downplayed.  If we wink and look the
other way at racism expressed by nonwhites, aren't we being terribly
condescending?  It's as if we are saying "We will tolerate bad thoughts
among the powerless until they throw off the yoke of oppression, and then
we will hold them to the same standards as we hold white males."  As if
minorities are somehow like naughty children whose tantrums we will
tolerate until they grow up.  Or worse, as if moral development of
minority persons was somehow linked to their status in society.  If I were
a person from an oppressed minority I would be thoroughly insulted that my
humanity could be so cavalierly compromised.

ECS

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:55>From witkowsk@cshl.org  Wed Nov 16 17:00:13 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 18:01:47 -0500
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: witkowsk@cshl.org (J. A. Witkowski - Banbury Center, CSHL)
Subject: Re: "racism"

>However, another view of racism
>is, I believe, more informative:  racism is an inherently asymmetrical tool
>of oppression, used by oppressors against the oppressed for the purposes of
>maintaining the power/class structure of the status quo.

This seems an incredibly broad definition of "racism" - so broad that it
loses any usefulness as a term and as such is less informative.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:56>From arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au  Wed Nov 16 17:42:22 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 07:42:01 +0800 (WST)
From: Dave Rindos <arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: borrowing vs. genetic change

Bonn wrote:

> I would hazard
> a guess that much borrowing goes on when there is no word in the borrower's
> own language to use to convey the idea of the new <item/idea> in their
> own language.  This certainly explains how english ended up borrowing the
> word gaitsup (catchup/ketchup) from cantonese at the same time that it
> borrowed the sauce bearing that name.  I also suspect that much of the
> borrowing that can be documented from past societies also arises in
> a similar fashion, driven by the need to communicate an idea.  if
> the only way to convey that in one's own language is a very cumbersome
> long phrase one will automatically begin to use the much shorter borrowed
> word (i.e. catchup rather than salty tomato sauce).

Oddly enough (and how I savour this when it happens) the example given
here to provide evidence for an "automatic" cultural choice is probably
not the best.  In Australia, the salty tomato sauce (catchup), is referred
to as "Tomato Sauce" and is sold under that generic.  This, of course, has
caused certain literal-minded North Americans no small surprise when they
used it instead of (the appropriate) Bolognese Sauce when preparing
spaghetti or lasagna.  Interestingly, the tomato sauce here is sold in the
same shaped bottle as the catchup in North America (making me wonder how
people could make the error just described, but I guess not everybody
thinks like an archaeologist).  Regarding the shorter/longer terminology
problem, that is solved here by simple abbreviation.  When one orders the
traditional Australian ethnic delight known as The Pie, the question
inevietably asked is "Sauce?"

Dave,
who admits to enjoy the occasional pie, but never accepts the sauce.

--
	Dave Rindos		  arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
    20 Herdsmans Parade    Wembley   WA    6014    AUSTRALIA
    Ph:+61 9 387 6281 (GMT+8)  FAX:+61 9 386 2760 (USEST+13)
      [you may also reach me on rindos@perth.dialix.oz.au]

  Rabbits exist, hence we may speak meaningfully to the evolution of
     the rabbit.  Some people attempt to study the evolution of
      human intelligence. We may well have a real problem here.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:57>From ROGRADY@delphi.com  Wed Nov 16 21:25:44 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:10:43 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard O'Grady, 301/891-1244" <ROGRADY@delphi.com>
Subject: Re: "racism"
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

In reply to Patent's posting about the (non)racism of the Sun People rhetoric,
all I can say is that racism is as racism does, makes no difference what
claims of victimhood and righteousness you drape yourself with.

- Richard O'Grady
  Takoma Park, MD

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:58>From chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu  Wed Nov 16 23:17:20 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:17:10 -0800
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu (Jason D. Patent)
Subject: Re: "racism"

Hi again.

I will keep this brief, because it's already exploded far beyond what I
expected.  Most importantly, there has been an unfortunate
misunderstanding, which stems both from the vagueness of my posting and
people's evidently extreme sensitivity to such issues.  Those who have
responded to me (mostly in private) have assumed that I am a supporter of
the "Sun people" hypothesis.  Not so.  My point I here reiterate and expand
upon:  we need another term for what Ms. Scott refers to as "racism" as
applied to the "Sun people" hypothesis.

The fundamental error made by those responding to me is assuming that if
it's NOT "racism" then it's good.  It seems that there are plenty of BAD
things out there which are not racism.  Simply because we choose a term
other than "racism" to refer to the "Sun people" hypothesis does not mean
that we support said hypothesis.  What we DO want to avoid is convoluting
the one-way, asymmetrical, oppressor TO oppressed connotations of "racism"
with a phenomenon which may share some characteristics of racism, but also
in many respects differs from racism.  (here, obviously, using "racism" in
its asymmetrical sense)

That said, I'd like nothing better than to get back to the scientific
discussion at hand.  I was learning a lot.

Jason D. Patent
Graduate Student
UC Berkeley Department of Linguistics
chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:59>From GA5123@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU  Wed Nov 16 23:25:54 1994

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 94 23:17:53 CST
From: GA5123@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup

  Let's braid together for a moment
the discussions of kaka and borrowing.
With regard to kaka, all the languages mentioned so far are
Indo-European.  (Does anyone out there have non-IE examples?)
If the word was in their common ancestor, Proto-Indo-European,
then Latin didn't have to borrow it from Greek,
nor did any of the others need to borrow it from Latin or Spanish.
Why borrow a baby-talk word for a bodily function?
The word seems to be at the other end of the semantic
spectrum from the culturally unique or technological words that have
been mentioned as prime candidates for borrowing.
  The interesting question about Spanish caca is
Why didn't the second c change to g, as it did in the verb cagar?
  Meanwhile ketchup/catsup/catchup -- (Merriam-)Webster derives it
from Malay "kechap" (maybe "kecap" in today's orthography?).
What is the case for a Cantonese source?
(Speakers of "R-less" English -- pardon the pun.)
-----------------------------------
Lee Hartman                         ga5123@siucvmb.siu.edu
Department of Foreign Languages
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale, IL  62901-4521  U.S.A.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:60>From chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu  Thu Nov 17 02:14:06 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:13:56 -0800
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu (Jason D. Patent)
Subject: Re: "racism"

>>However, another view of racism
>>is, I believe, more informative:  racism is an inherently asymmetrical tool
>>of oppression, used by oppressors against the oppressed for the purposes of
>>maintaining the power/class structure of the status quo.
>
>This seems an incredibly broad definition of "racism" - so broad that it
>loses any usefulness as a term and as such is less informative.

No.  My definition of racism is actually much NARROWER than the going
definition.  The standard interpretation of racism includes ALL forms of
postulations of racial superiority.  My definition EXCLUDES all except
those which can be said to exist within the context of a particular set of
power relations.

Jason D. Patent
Graduate Student
UC Berkeley Department of Linguistics
chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:61>From PHL6SF@LUCS-MAC.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK  Thu Nov 17 02:58:33 1994

From: PHL6SF <PHL6SF@LUCS-MAC.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Leeds
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:09:54 GMT
Subject: Re: kaka

There's also the (North UK) expression 'cack-handed'  and 'It's cack/a load
of cack ...'
Any relation?
Cheers,
Steven French
s.r.d.french@leeds.ac.uk
'His mind was good, but he only understood one or two things
in the whole world - samurai movies and the Macintosh - and
he understood them far, far too well.' (Snow Crash, Neal
Stephenson)
- well, I've got the Mac, now all I need are the swords!!

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:62>From chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu  Thu Nov 17 03:49:38 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 01:49:28 -0800
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
From: chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu (Jason D. Patent)
Subject: Re: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup

Dear Lee,

This is in response to the following query:

>Meanwhile ketchup/catsup/catchup -- (Merriam-)Webster derives it
>From Malay "kechap" (maybe "kecap" in today's orthography?).
>What is the case for a Cantonese source?

The case that I've heard, but cannot verify, is that "ketchup" comes from
the Cantonese "tomato juice"--pronounced "faan ke jap".  Somehow the "faan"
got dropped.  (My Cantonese is lousy, but I believe the tones are:
high-falling, low-rising, high.  In Mandarin, I believe it would, be:
fan2qie2zhi1.)

Again, this is all based on hearsay.  Not reliable information at all.

Jason D. Patent
Graduate Student
UC Berkeley Department of Linguistics
chefboy@violet.berkeley.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:63>From KBO-GILLIS@nrm.se  Thu Nov 17 04:20:19 1994

From: "Gillis Een" <KBO-GILLIS@nrm.se>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:19:30 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Kaka

The noun "kaka" is pure Swedish and means cake.

A "ko-kaka" translates as cow-cake and refers to cow-dung as you find
it the field where it has been dropped. The shape is often that of a
large and thick pancake.

We also have the verb "kacka", which means defecate in relation to
animals. It is hardly used today, but I recall an old proverb which
runs "att kacka i eget bo", which means to defecate in your own nest.

Gillis Een
Stockholm
Sweden

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:64>From FALN@zuk.iz.uj.edu.pl  Thu Nov 17 05:04:15 1994

From: "Falniowski Andrzej" <FALN@zuk.iz.uj.edu.pl>
Organization:  Instytut Zoologii U.J.
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:01:27 MET
Subject: Re: kaka

It is my pleasure to inform, that "kaka" (or "kaku") means excrements
(in not too polite manner, by the way) in Polish.

Greetings,

Andrzej Falniowski
Zool.Mus.Jagiellonian Univ.

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:65>From bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu  Thu Nov 17 07:06:58 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:08:14 EDT
From: "Bonnie Blackwell, Dept of Geology, (718) 997-3332"
      <bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup

in dictionaries that i have checked catsup/catchup/ketchup the source
is always listed as chinese.  it is interesting that the cantonese
pronounciation is so close to the english "catchup" pronounciation that
almost anyone would recognize the term spoken by a cantonese speaker (who
first introduced me to the concept).  if you look at it historically,
it also makes sense that it should be canton for the origin.  the word
(and product) are primarily (and as far as i know also first used) in
the united states and england who both had strong trading concession in
canton & hong kong in the 1840-1870's.  do the dutch (who colonized malaysia)
first) use the term catsup/catchup/ketchup or anything like it?  do they
have a similar product in their cooking (i cannot recall from my shrot time
in amsterdam)?
bonn

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:66>From bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu  Thu Nov 17 07:38:50 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:40:05 EDT
From: "Bonnie Blackwell, Dept of Geology, (718) 997-3332"
      <bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: more on catchup/catsup/ketchup

it is likely (but not certain), that the malay form of the word may
derive from the chinese.  the chinese colonized most of southeast asia
during several periods of expansion in the past few thousand years.
they may well have taken their tomato sauce with them and allowed the
malays to borrow the word!

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:67>From GGALE@VAX1.UMKC.EDU  Thu Nov 17 07:51:25 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 07:51:11 -0600 (CST)
From: GGALE@VAX1.UMKC.EDU
Subject: Re: DARWIN-L digest 335
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

If Gary Aronsen goes by Burlington House, Picadilly, to visit the Linnean
Society, he should step across the courtyard to visit the Royal Astronomical
Society. It's just awesome (!) to stand in the same room that Newton,
Eddington, et al, met in. Some nice 'scopes about, too, plus, 'natch, a
nice library. They're open every day, but you might call for hours.
George
ggale@vax1.umkc.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:68>From peter@usenix.org  Thu Nov 17 08:24:27 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 06:24:20 PST
From: peter@usenix.org (Peter H. Salus)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup

(1) yes, ketjap occurs in Dutch.

(2) in Malay (and Indonesian) it means any vegetable-based
	piquant sauce.

(3) I would think Amoy more likely than Cantonese, but
	point out that the 1840-1870's are largely
	irrelevant, as Swift uses the word a century
	earlier, in a period that precedes England's
	adventures in either India or China.

(4) The chronolgy points to Dutch to English
	transmission; thus more likely Malay/Indonesian
	to Dutch around 1690-1710 and thence to the
	rest of Europe.

(5) This in no way precludes Amoy to Malay transmission
	prior to that.

Peter

________________________________________________________________

Peter H. Salus	#3303	4 Longfellow Place	Boston, MA 02114
	+1 617 723-3092

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:69>From peter@usenix.org  Thu Nov 17 08:26:17 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 06:26:12 PST
From: peter@usenix.org (Peter H. Salus)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  more on catchup/catsup/ketchup

Bonnie, tomatoes are a New World import to
China.  While the Chinese had pickled/fermented
sauces (e.g. soy), they certainly couldn't
have ``taken their tomato sauce with them''
in the 16th or 17th centuries!

Peter

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:70>From bill@clyde.as.utexas.edu  Thu Nov 17 08:31:59 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 08:31:18 CST
From: bill@clyde.as.utexas.edu (William H. Jefferys)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  more on catchup/catsup/ketchup

#it is likely (but not certain), that the malay form of the word may
#derive from the chinese.  the chinese colonized most of southeast asia
#during several periods of expansion in the past few thousand years.
#they may well have taken their tomato sauce with them and allowed the
#malays to borrow the word!

Don't forget that tomatoes are a product of the New World,
and would not have been known in Asia prior to the 16th
century. There are other kinds of catsups, however.

Bill

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:71>From PICARD@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA  Thu Nov 17 09:32:18 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:30:47 -0500 (EST)
From: MARC PICARD <PICARD@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA>
Subject: Re: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

	Lee Hartman brings up an interesting point when he says:

  The interesting question about Spanish caca is
  Why didn't the second c change to g, as it did in the verb cagar?

	French has CACA too even though the verb is CHIER (pronounced SHYAY)
which is the expected development of Latin CACARE. There is a word CHICHI but
it means 'fuss'. Anyway, I can't wait for this discussion to expand to PIPI.

Marc Picard

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:72>From PICARD@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA  Thu Nov 17 10:03:37 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:04:02 -0500 (EST)
From: MARC PICARD <PICARD@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA>
Subject: Re: more on catchup/catsup/ketchup
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu

	According to my sources, catchup/catsup/ketchup derives ultimately
from Chinese (Amoy) KE-TSIAP 'pickled fish-brine or sauce' which became the
Malay KECHAP. The original condiment that Dutch traders imported from the
Orient appears to have been either a fish sauce or one made from special
mushrooms salted for preservation. It wasn't until American seamen added
tomatoes that catchup/catsup/ketchup as we know it was born.

Marc Picard

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:73>From CHODGES@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU  Thu Nov 17 13:28:15 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:28:03 -0800 (PST)
From: CHODGES@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU
Subject: Introduction
To: DARWIN-L <Darwin-L@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>

Hello everyone;
  My name is Charlie Hodges and I am a first year graduate student in
archaeology at the University of Oregon (and, yes, it is raining here
today in Eugene).  I have a background in both archaeology and
philosophy.  My interest in archaeology is geoarcheology- mostly soils
and geomorphology.  My philosophy background is Anglo-American analytic
philosophy- my reading in philosophy is rather sporadic and I mostly use
philosophical methods these days to evaluate arguments in archaeology (a
very useful tool, indeed).
   One phenomenon (or, rather, a cluster of phenomena) I've noticed since
embarking on my geoarchaeological trajectory is how well classificatory
and explanatory schemes from other historical sciences fit into
archaeology.  (For example, problems and issues in Soil Taxonomy seem
to translate remarkably well into archaeological talk about
systematics in prehistory) In my reading of the history of archaeology
(which I have just begun) I've noticed that this is almost taken for granted,
but I have begun to wonder exactly why this might be the case.  One tack
I'm thinking of pursuing is to look at 1) coherentism (as a method of
justifying historical inferences) and 2) the possiblility of developing a
theory of a continuum of explanation, that is, at one end of the
continuum are essentialist derived explanations which are powerful but
narrow in scope (causal chain reasoning) and at the other end are
materialist derived explanations, less powerful, wider in scope (and
perhaps dependent on coherentist justification- causal web reasoning).
Although this is kind of wu-wu (I am in grad school, after all), I've found
that at some level it seems to drive my data gathering schemes in the field.
   Anyway, that's probably enough for now.  Oh, I'm new to this Internet
stuff- I beg your patience for my (unintentional) faux pas.  I'm
certainly open to learning the protocol.

------------
Charlie Hodges
Dept of Anthropology
Eugene   Oregon  U.S.A.
chodges@oregon.uoregon.edu


_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:74>From bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu  Thu Nov 17 15:48:06 1994

Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:49:14 EDT
From: "Bonnie Blackwell, Dept of Geology, (718) 997-3332"
      <bonn@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: kaka, borrowing, catsup/ketchup

thanks to salus for the correction and the information.
bonn

_______________________________________________________________________________

<15:75>From arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au  Thu Nov 17 19:46:43 1994

Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:46:17 +0800 (WST)
From: Dave Rindos <arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: more on catchup/catsup/ketchup [long]

I decided to take a look at my pantry as well as some old cookbooks in my
collection to get a bit of data on the topic.

The Indonesian sauce in the pantry is 'Kecap.' It is a thick, sweetened
soy-based sauce, clearly related to Chinese Thickened Soy, itself a
product of cooking soy with spices and sugar.  I assume the primitive
term, even in english, refers to this product and, further, it indicates a
distnction made between a thin product and a thicker (sweeter and spicer?)
one, both of which are used as an *ingredient* in flavouring food.  Maybe
the cantonese speakers could help me out with this assumption, especially
since it might be relevant to what follows.

_The Virginia Housewife, or, Methodical Cook_ (Philadelphia 1860 edition
of the 1824 original, based apparently on the 1831 edition) gives few
recipes for catchup (but it is a brief compendium in any case).  Mrs
Randolph, however, does include recipes for Mushroom Catchup and BOTH
Tomato Catsup and Tomato Soy.  None of the recipes contain vinegar or
sugar, but all are spiced (rather highly by today's tastes -- for example
to one bushel of tomatos [sic] used in the Soy, she calls for one ounce of
cloves, four ounces each of allspice and black pepper and a small wine
glass of Cayenne).  The Soy is differentiated from the others by being
subjected to three days' salt-based fermentation of the tomatoes and
onions before the cooking, but like the others is still strained (albeit
through a sieve not a colander, hence we may assume it is a thinner
product).  A very similar recipe made from green tomatoes is listed under
the rubric "Tomato Marmalade" and a sweetened version is also listed.
This lacks onions but has garlic added and is not strained.  She notes it
is "excellent for seasoning gravies &c. &c."  Today I think we would
classify it as a "relish", a term lacking in the 19th Century books. She
also lists a Walnut Catsup which *is* made with vinegar.  Unlike the
others, this would appear to result in a thin product, totally in keeping
with the thin/thick hypothesis given above.  She also gives an Oyster
Catsup which is made with hihgly spiced pounded oysters and white wine,
cooked, sieved, and stored.  She notes that if a glass of brandy is added
it will keep for a "considerable time."

_Housekeeping in Old Virigina_ (Louisville 1879), a compendium of recipes,
is a forerunner of the "Church Cookbook" genre [anybody having access to
these, please contact me privately] as well as the "Celebrity Cookbook"
publishing hussle (the author writes of herself that "she is indebted to
near 250 contributors to her book.  Among these will be found **many names
famous through the land.**").  Incidently, and rather remarkably for the
time, she signed her Editor's Preface "Marion Cabell Tyree" leaving us
uncertain if she is Mrs Samuel Tyree, Mrs John H Tyree, a third Tyree, or
perhaps some other Mrs all together.  This volume lists numerous catchup
recipes made from tomatoes (listed first and followed up by), cucumbers,
walnuts (the catchup made from young walnut leaves being called Bay Sauce
in two cases, but 'Walnut Catchup from the Leaves' in another), mushrooms
and red peppers (which mentions that "strong pepper" can be added towards
the end). All contain vinegar and spices.  Some of the tomato catchups
contain sugar.  The recipes are contained in the chapter titled "Pickle
and Catsups."  A "Tomato Marmalade or Sauce for Meats" contains spices,
sugar, and vinegar boiled to the "thickness of molasses" is listed with
other tomato pickle recipes, but it is, important for the point made here,
unstrained.  Various sauces, including Tomato, are also given, but these
are almost always to be prepared just before serving and are, generally,
listed in a separate chapter with the title Sauces [which includes Apple
Sauce (contains butter), itself sandwiched between the Onion Sauce and the
Mint Sauce].

_The Successful Housekeeper, A Manual of Universal Application, Especially
adapted to the every day wants of American housewives;  embracing several
thousand throughly tested and approved recipes, care and culture of
children, birds, and house plants; flower and window gardening, etc; with
many valuable hints on home decoration._ This volume appears unauthored,
and is published in 1882 in Detroit.  Befitting its size (not to mention
it aims), it contains a whole chapter on Catsups (between Confectionary
and Desserts and well separated from Pickles or Preserves).  It lists
Currant, Cucumber (needs no cooking), Gooseberry (may also be used for
grapes), Plum, Tomato (2), and refers to the Mushroom Chapter for Mushroom
Catsup recipes.  All recipes are vinegared and all, except the Tomato #2,
contain sugar and are highly spiced (eg.  for one gallon of sieved
tomatoes they recommond one cup onion, 1/2 C black pepper, 4 hot pepper
pods, 1/2 C mixed allspice, nutmeg and cinnamon, one ounce celery seed,
1/4 C each ginger and mustard, and 2 cups sugar with one pint strong
vinegar).  Most of the recipes stress the need to boil to the right (by
which they appear to mean thick) consistency. Of interest here, they note
in the introduction to this Chapter that the "good housekeeper will alwaly
look with pride upon it as it stands upon the shelves in closely-corked
bottles, neatly labeled, feeling, as she may, that she possesses close at
hand the means of imparting a delicious flavor to her sauces and gravies
without at the same time placing any deleterious compound before her
friends."  In the Pickles chapter Green Tomato Soy is listed which is in
keeping with the same conceptual distinction and both the recipe and its
treatment (unstrained) is quite tomato marmalade (=relish) described
above.

All of the recipes given thus far are consistent, albeit fairly general in
their instructions, at least in terms of the "Fanny Farmer" school of
detailed instruction (itself a bit of joke, but then again maybe there ARE
people willing to throw away a tablespoon of chopped onion so that they
will have *exactly* "one cup" as called in the recipe).  This is
particularly true in terms of cooking times and temperatures (after all,
wood stoves are NOT particularly easy to control which is probably why
people still believe that souffles or angle-food cake are difficult to
make).  One thing that does seem apparent, however, is that the cooking
times are long.... directions like "all day" (obviously meaning at the
back of the stove) are common in these recipes.  Under conditions of long
cooking like this, we could very easily expect the final product to be
very very dark, and the spices added would make it even darker.  The
product is clearly meant to be thick (other recipes may refer to putting
first through a colander and then a sieve, hence the catchups, being
generally colander-ed rather than sieved, will also have a coarser grain)
and dark, it will be used as an INGREDIENT for flavouring sauces, etc
(rather than, like a pickle, served on its own as a savory).  It is also
(especially in the later volumes) sweetened.  Hence, if we assume that
Kecup was being imported (and Soy as well), the similariaties in color and
use make the use of the terms fairly clear.  It is also somewhat
interesting that the earliest recipes lack vinegar.  I assume its addition
by the mid-century was functional in that fermentation or other spoilage
of the fruit-based product was likely.  In fact, it lack is also
telling.  If we assume that the various catcups given here were meant to
substitute in a specific niche in the kitchen for an expensive, imported,
delicacy ("eggplant caviar" and all that), the lack of vinegar in the
earliest recipes would be just what we would predict.  The use of the
term for the thin concotions like Walnut Catcup would follow from it same
role in cooking.

The transition of catchup from an ingredient to a condiment probably could
be traced out in later cookbooks.  I would guess that as the bland
("sophisticated") diet of the 20th Century evolved, the selective forces
acting in the kitchen would have reduced the fitness of the various
catchups described in these earlier books.  Along with this, we might find
the rise of the term Tomato Sauce in keeping with its new role as a
substance placed directly on food (condiment), rather than as an
ingredient.  Here it is probably telling that, in my own experience,
ozzies seem to find my addition of ketchup to recipes for foods like
meat-loaf distinctly bizarre (though nowhere NEAR as shocking as Jello
Salads :{) ) and a quick glance through Australian cookbooks seems to
indicate that catchup is NOT used as an ingredient.  I can only assume,
that as in the American accent, a more primitive (less derived) state of
affairs still obtains on that continent in relation to catchup.

Dave,
grinning . . .

--
	Dave Rindos		  arkeo4@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
    20 Herdsmans Parade    Wembley   WA    6014    AUSTRALIA
    Ph:+61 9 387 6281 (GMT+8)  FAX:+61 9 386 2760 (USEST+13)
      [you may also reach me on rindos@perth.dialix.oz.au]

  Rabbits exist, hence we may speak meaningfully to the evolution of
     the rabbit.  Some people attempt to study the evolution of
      human intelligence. We may well have a real problem here.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Darwin-L Message Log 15: 31-75 -- November 1994                             End