Darwin-L Message Log 44: 1–16 — April 1997

Academic Discussion on the History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L was an international discussion group on the history and theory of the historical sciences, active from 1993–1997. Darwin-L was established to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present, and to encourage communication among scholars, scientists, and researchers in these fields. The group had more than 600 members from 35 countries, and produced a consistently high level of discussion over its several years of operation. Darwin-L was not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles Darwin, but instead addressed the entire range of historical sciences from an explicitly comparative perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology, systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical geography, historical anthropology, and related “palaetiological” fields.

This log contains public messages posted to the Darwin-L discussion group during April 1997. It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been reformatted, and error messages and personal messages accidentally posted to the group as a whole have been deleted. No genuine editorial changes have been made to the content of any of the posts. This log is provided for personal reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.

The master copy of this log is maintained in the Darwin-L Archives (rjohara.net/darwin) by Dr. Robert J. O’Hara. The Darwin-L Archives also contain additional information about the Darwin-L discussion group, the complete Today in the Historical Sciences calendar for every month of the year, a collection of recommended readings on the historical sciences, and an account of William Whewell’s concept of “palaetiology.”


A Network Discussion Group on the
History and Theory of the Historical Sciences

Darwin-L@raven.cc.ukans.edu is an international network discussion group on
the history and theory of the historical sciences.  Darwin-L was established
in September 1993 to promote the reintegration of a range of fields all of
which are concerned with reconstructing the past from evidence in the present,
and to encourage communication among academic professionals in these fields.
Darwin-L is not restricted to evolutionary biology nor to the work of Charles
Darwin but instead addresses the entire range of historical sciences from an
interdisciplinary perspective, including evolutionary biology, historical
linguistics, textual transmission and stemmatics, historical geology,
systematics and phylogeny, archeology, paleontology, cosmology, historical
anthropology, historical geography, and related "palaetiological" fields.

This log contains the public messages posted to Darwin-L during April 1997.
It has been lightly edited for format: message numbers have been added for ease
of reference, message headers have been trimmed, some irregular lines have been
reformatted, and some administrative messages and personal messages posted to
the group as a whole have been deleted.  No genuine editorial changes have been
made to the content of any of the posts.  This log is provided for personal
reference and research purposes only, and none of the material contained herein
should be published or quoted without the permission of the original poster.
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is supported by the Center for Critical Inquiry, University of North Carolina
at Greensboro, and the Department of History and the Academic Computing Center,
University of Kansas.


<44:1>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu Tue Apr  1 01:02:33 1997

Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 01:02:28 -0500 (EST)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: List owner's monthly greeting
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

Greetings to all Darwin-L subscribers.  On the first of every month I send
out a short note on the status of our group, along with a reminder of basic
commands.  For additional information about the group please visit the
Darwin-L Web Server <http://rjohara.uncg.edu>.

Darwin-L is an international discussion group for professionals in the
historical sciences.  The group is not devoted to any particular discipline,
such as evolutionary biology, but rather seeks to promote interdisciplinary
comparisons across the entire range of fields concerned with historical
reconstruction, including evolution, historical linguistics, archeology,
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<44:2>From nn12@cornell.edu Tue Apr  1 09:47:14 1997

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:47:03 -0500 (EST)
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
From: nn12@cornell.edu (Nick Nicastro)
Subject: Re: Neanderthal Music

Apologies to those who wanted to believe it, but the "tusk tuba" in April's
DISCOVER is an April-fool's joke. It is inspired, no doubt, by the Middle
Paleolithic flute recently uncovered in Slovenia-- but the existence of
Neanderthal tubas, French horns, recorders, and trombones remain (at least
temporarily) unproven.

P.S. The paleontologist's name "Todkopf" ("Dead Head") should have been a

-- N. Nicastro
    Dept. of Anthropology
    Cornell University


<44:3>From bayla@pb.seflin.org Tue Apr  1 05:27:59 1997

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:27:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bayla Singer <bayla@pb.seflin.org>
Subject: Re: Neanderthal Music
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu

Suzanne K Langer, in her -Philosophy in a New Key- suggests inter alia
that music preceded language.  The <new key> in the title does not refer
to music, by the way, but to the perspective she brings to bear on
philosophical issues.  I read the book quite a number of years ago, and
frequently find her insights informing my own as I approach new material.

--Bayla    bayla@pb.seflin.org


<44:4>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu Tue Apr  1 13:19:41 1997

Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 14:19:10 -0500 (EST)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: Geology of Greece (long) (fwd from BMCR-L)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

--begin forwarded message--------------

Higgins, Michael Denis, and Reynold Higgins, <i>A Geological Companion
to Greece and the Aegean</i>, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1996. Pp.
xvi, 240. $55.00  ISBN 0-8014-3337-1.
     Reviewed by Robert Lamberton, Classics
          Washington University
          St. Louis MO 63130

For those of us accustomed to trouble ourselves over how many years
Plutarch might have lived on into the reign of Hadrian, or even over the
time of the arrival of Indo-European speakers in the southern Balkans, the
notion of a book about the past 190 million years of the history of the
Greek landscape offers an imaginatively liberating shift of scale.  Even
this limit -- the Mid-Jurassic -- is somewhat arbitrarily chosen, but, as
our authors explain, the earlier and vastly longer geological history of
the earth's crust is obscured because "we are uncertain of the position of
the continents in earlier times and cannot reconstruct the earlier history
of plate tectonics"  (16).

Now, as far as plates and their faults (normal, thrust, or otherwise) are
concerned, I can bring no expertise to this review.  My marginal capacity
to remember which is the graben and which is the horst owes more to the
study of German than that of geology.  As a result, I owe both the reader
and the authors under review some explanation for my pretense in snatching
the opportunity to review this book -- a pretense that does, in fact, rest
on something more than a dilletante's delight in the geological sublime.
Quite simply, I have been wishing for such a volume for years.  I think of
myself as highly representative of at least one of its targeted audiences,
and if I must defer to others in the assessment of its geological
accuracy, I can at least identify myself as one of those for whom this
book aspires to serve as a "companion".  It will certainly be a welcome
one -- and not just for me, but for the sorts of groups I have led and
hope to lead again in Greece and Turkey, those fascinated by the natural
and the human history of the region, and who share a passion for "reading"
the Greek landscape and discovering the past expressed in its surface.

The book is the product of the collaboration of the late Reynold Higgins
of the Department of Greek and Roman Antiquities of the British Museum --
whose voluminous and widely known and respected scholarship ranged from
minor arts (<i>Greek and Roman Jewellery</i> [1961,1980]) and terracotta
figurines (most recently <i>Tanagra and the Figurines</i> [1986]) to the
Bronze Age (<i>Minoan and Mycenean Art</i> [1967, 1981]) -- and his son,
geologist Michael Denis Higgins, who completed the book after his father's
death in 1993.  Most readers of BMCR will have had less occasion to
consult Michael Denis Higgins' impressive list of contributions, though a
few minutes spent with "GeoRef" will give an idea of their range.  He
seems to have included none of his many papers in the 293-item
bibliography that is one of the most valuable assets of the
<i>Companion</i>, and indeed most would not be relevant, ranging as they
do from the chemical analysis of meteorites to the igneous petrology of
Quebec (the subject of his 1980 doctoral work -- he now teaches at the
Universite du Quebec, Chicoutimi).  Still, some of his recent papers, in
particular, have dealt with volcanism in Greece, including comparative
studies of crystals found in lavas from Thera and from the North Island of
New Zealand.

Father and son planned the book, and though its final realization was left
to the geologist, both were able to work together to shape it and to
establish its balance of styles and priorities (xi).  It was a fruitful
collaboration, and one for which we may all be very grateful.  The
<i>Companion</i> does not fit comfortably into any familiar genre, and had
the collaboration been based on any less intimate a relationship of mutual
respect and understanding, this juxtaposition of descriptive and
historical geology with (largely historical)  archaeology might well have
failed to achieve any synthesis at all.  The result participates in two
distinct popularizing genres at once: first, the local geology book.
Those of us who like to travel with Unklesbay and Vineyard's <i>Missouri
Geology</i> in the car as a map of the "Missouri column" as exposed in
bluffs and roadcuts, or to explore the outcroppings and even the building
stone of Manhattan armed with Schuberth's classic <i>Geology of New York
and Environs</i> will want this book with us in Greece and Turkey,
independent of our archaeological interests. But the <i>Companion</i> is
simultaneously an archaeological guidebook -- not a competitor with the
<i>Blue Guide</i>, of course, but it includes enough historical and
archaeological information on a wide range of relevant sites to satisfy
the traveler whose concerns are <i>not</i> primarily archaeological.
Rockhounds and ecotourists may well find all they want to know about the
sites right here.  Finally, though, it is along the interface between
these two genres that the <i>Companion</i> makes its unique contribution
-- still a task of popularization, but pointing beyond and providing
access to a wealth of geological bibliography relevant to Greek
archaeology that has remained inaccessible to most of us.  What father and
son give us amounts to a simultaneously intimate and public dialogue:
here, says the geologist, is what is geologically interesting about this
landscape and this site, and here, echoes the archaeologist, is what is
archaeologically interesting about this exceptionally crumpled and
geologically active patch of the earth's crust.

The <i>Companion</i> begins with a lucid, succinct, nicely illustrated
textbook presentation of plate and local tectonics, the types of rocks and
their origins, and the interactions of land with fresh and salt water,
with special attention to features of particular relevance to the southern
Balkans (e.g., the karst landscape, beach-rock).  This provides the basis
for a similarly succinct "Geological History of the Mediterranean"
(16-25), at the end of which the area under discussion -- roughly, the
modern state of Greece and the coasts of western Anatolia from the Sea of
Marmara to Caria -- is divided into fourteen regions, clearly represented
in what amounts to an index-map (Fig. 2.7, p. 25).  Each region is the
subject of a chapter of roughly ten pages, beginning with a summary of the
geology of the region, and completed by a series of sub-chapters on local
features.  Most of those selected have both archaeological and geological
interest, though these concerns are always maintained in a sort of
equilibrium, and outstanding geological features of no particular
archaeological or historical interest are included (e.g. the White
Mountains and Samaria Gorge in Crete [200-202], the wonderful petrified
forest of western Lesbos [135], and the Springs of Kaiapha near Olympia
[69]).  The fit between the archaeologically interesting and the
geologically interesting is, of course, not perfect.  In the discussion of
some sites, we get little more than a juxtaposition of the two sorts of
information.  But it will be no surprise that in the presentation of the
many sites where archaeology and historical reconstruction are inseparable
from geology, those of us more actively concerned with the former are
treated to the sort of succinct and geologically informed discussion we
have long wished for, along with invaluable bibliographical references.
The two columns and map devoted to lake Copais (76-78) and the discussion
of Thermopylae (81-83) are striking examples, and the book throws a
clearer light on observable evidence of natural cataclysms of historical
importance than we have had available in the past (e.g. the eruptions of
Thera [187-95] and the massive earthquake that leveled Sparta in 464 BCE
and left a still visible fault-scarp "10-12 m high that runs for 20 km
along the base of the Taygetos mountains" [53-54]). Other features that
receive exceptionally good treatment here, reflecting the interests of
both authors, are the quarries from which came the marbles and other stone
used in building and sculpture in antiquity, as well as the clay beds
associated with the ancient centers of pottery production (though the
actual deposits exploited can rarely be located with precision).  The
abundant and excellent maps and plans in many cases make it possible to
walk or drive to such features.  All the plans show us aspects of the
sites that no other guidebook reveals.

One could raise quibbles, both on small scale and large.  Proofreading,
particularly of maps and charts, was clearly neglected.  I noted more than
a handful of typos; most conspicuously, the chart of Geological periods
(Fig.  1.1) was not properly proofread and the chart of "Archaeological
time in the Aegean region" (xv) was surely intended to draw the line
between Classical and Hellenistic at the death of Alexander in 323, not
"232".  Diacriticals on Turkish toponyms are occasionally included but
more often omitted.  The map of Thrace (Fig. 12.1) includes the innovative
toponyms Kavella and Alexandropoulos (the latter particularly remarkable,
with three mistakes in one word).  These and other confusions -- e.g.
"Skyros must have been rich in the early Bronze Age, as much gold
jewellery has been found in tombs of 1000-700 BC" (93) -- could, and
should, have been caught by an archaeologically informed and alert editor
or proofreader.  A larger matter relates to the high level of
generalization of the historical and archaeological summaries, resulting
in an inevitable risk of oversimplification and distortion, compounded by
the tendency of such high-level generalizations to be superseded and
become outdated and misleading.  (I suspect that the necessary compression
and simplification of the geological descriptions may incur some of the
same risks, but I am less able to assess them.)  But these difficulties
are inherent in the plan of the book, and we should be very grateful to
have what we have -- it is doubtful that anyone else could have done it

Who should buy it?  It should certainly be in every academic library, and
in particular in every collection intended primarily to serve
undergraduates.  It will be a valuable resource for students of Greek
archaeology, both beginners and those more advanced.  Beyond that, all of
us who aspire to read the Greek landscape and to become more sensitive to
its past and its present will want to carry it in the field -- reading it
in wintry St. Louis has brought me a rich wave of anticipation of the
pleasures of doing so myself.

--end forwarded message----------------


<44:5>From DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu Tue Apr  1 14:04:02 1997

Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 15:03:37 -0500 (EST)
From: DARWIN@iris.uncg.edu
Subject: Romanian archeology list (fwd)
To: darwin-l@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
Organization: University of NC at Greensboro

--begin forwarded message--------------

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:36:34 +0000
From: mangelescu@pcnet.pcnet.ro (Mircea Angelescu)
Subject: Romanian archaeology list
To: aegeanet@acpub.duke.edu

Dear colleagues,

As part of the effort to open the archaeological scholar community of
my country to international cooperation I am officially announcing
you that today came into being the first archaeology discussion
list of Romania.

Feel free to ask on this list  all the queries you have on Romanian
archaeology and/or personal contacts.


1.- To subscribe send mail to the list owner:
    mangelescu@pcnet.pcnet.ro  or to
    with a message containing

2. - To unsubscribe send mail to the list owner:
     or to
     with a message containing

Instructions for the listserver, such as those to change your subscription
options, must be emailed to LISTSERV@PCNET.PCNET.RO in the body of
the message. Only send what is required and do not enclose or
attach any additional text such as a signature.
NO SUBJECT: line is required and case is insensitive.

B). Posting Messages

Send all messages to ARHEOLOGIE-L@PCNET.PCNET.RO
Please include an informative SUBJECT: line.

Please enjoy!
Mircea Angelescu

Mircea Angelescu
Romanian  Archaeological Institute
Dep.of Greek and  Roman Archaeology
E-mail:   mangelescu@pcnet.pcnet.ro
Tel./Fax/Modem:      (40-1) 6661065

--end forwarded message----------------


<44:6>From Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com Thu Apr  3 02:06:19 1997

From: "Izzy (Israel) Cohen (req-telaviv)" <Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com>
Subject: Colin Renfrew Lectures
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:03:00 +0300

forwarded by Israel Cohen
From: Mark Hall
To: indoeuropean@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Date: Thursday, 3 April 1997 12:09AM

Professor Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthron FBA is the Director of The McDonald
Institute for Archaeological Research, Cambridge University.  He will be
delivering public lectures on Tuesday, April 15, entitled "Archaeology,
Genetics and Linguistic Diversity:  Towards a New Synthesis", and on
Thursday, April 17, entitled "The Sapiens Paradox, Or Why Did People Get
Smart So Late?"  Both lectures will begin at 4:10 p.m. in the International
House Auditorium and are free and open to the public.  Please contact
Teresa Malango at the number below if you would like biographical
materials on Professor Renfrew.

The ARF, in conjunction with the Hitchcock Lectures will sponsor a
reception immediately following the Thursday lecture, to be held in the
Atrium of the 2251 College Bldg.

Prof. Renfrew will be visiting the campus April 13-23, 1997; if you or any
of your colleagues would like to meet with him or invite him to attend a
class or seminar, please call Teresa Malango at extension 3-7413 or by
email at teresam@uclink to schedule a time.
This messages is forwarded to you from Teresa Malango,
Hitchcock Lectures Coordinator, Office of the Dean, Graduate Division.

Mark Hall


<44:7>From Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com Thu Apr  3 02:27:13 1997

From: "Izzy (Israel) Cohen (req-telaviv)" <Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com>
        HISTLING list
Cc: "'mcv@pi.net'" <mcv@pi.net>
Subject: Nostratic: the state of the question
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:21:00 +0300

forwarded by Israel Cohen
From: mcv@pi.net
To: nostratic@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Nostratic: the state of the question
Date: Thursday, 3 April 1997 12:52AM

Rick Mc Callister's question on "Indo-Uralic" and Kevin Tuite's
question on the possible implications for the Nostratic theory of the
suggested reconstruction of PIE as a Klimovian "jazyk aktivnogo
stroja", raise a couple of interesting questions.

What is the current state of Nostratic linguistics?  Where is there
still work to be done, which questions need to be settled, and what,
if anything, is required to "prove" the validity of the Nostratic

I will discuss a number of issues separately, although all is
intertwined in practice: no lexical cognates can be generally
accepted, as long as no consensus exists on the phonology of
Nostratic.  Nostratic will not be accepted as a unit, as long as there
is no clarity on the question of which languages belong in it and
which don't.


This is the area where most work has been done.  Allan Bomhard's 601
etymologies in "The Nostratic Macrofamily" and the 378 published
etymologies of Illich-Svitych, despite differences in the treatment if
sound correspondences, have 139 roots in common, if I have not
miscounted.  That constitutes a solid basis for further work, and
should give us a degree of confidence in the validity of the Nostratic
hypothesis.  What are the odds that the reconstructed proto-languages
of the AA, IE, Kartvelian, Dravidian, Uralic and Altaic families
should share 139 basic vocabulary roots, with regular sound
correspondences, *exclusively* due to borrowing or chance resemblance?


The biggest problem remains the interpretation of the PN stop system.
Illich-Svitych had reconstructed PN *t' *t *d =3D> PIE *t *d *dh.  Allan
Bomhard, following the "glottalic theory" of Gamqrelidze et al. for
PIE, reconstructs PN *t' *t *d =3D> PIE *d *t *dh (/t'/, /t/, /d/)
instead.  The most curious fact about all of this is that results
could be obtained using both correspondence sets.  As a matter of
fact, back in 1911, Hermann Moeller had obtained a sizeable amount of
IE ~ Semitic cognates using yet another set of sound correspondences.

Are the critics right that at this level of long range comparison, a
number of "cognates" (i.e. chance resemblances) can be found, no
matter what set of sound correspondences one uses?  I don't think so.
In the first place, Illich-Svitych and Bomhard have not done "mass
comparison".  Their work is based mainly on reconstructed proto-forms
for the families involved, and the choice of possible words is no
greater than what one has in IE linguistics (which is not to say that
one cannot dip into a family and pick a word that is present in one
language only, just as, say, Pokorny can dip into Greek and use an
obscure dialect word from Hesyochios (sp?)).  In my view, the body of
solid etymologies that are common to both "systems" cannot be
dismissed by pointing to these apparent irregularities in the stop
system.  If so, Indo-European should have been dismissed because of
the irregularities in Grimm's law (solved by Verner) or cases like
Lat. <habere> ~ E. "to have" (to be solved), and many others like it
(I wish I had a list of them).

We know at least that PIE had dissimilated roots that contained more
than one glottalic.  Similar assimilations and dissimilations will
have occurred in other branches of Nostratic, even at the
proto-language level itself (e.g. I am convinced that Bomhard's #92
*tap, and #134 *t'ab, both "warm, hot" are in fact the same word, but
until some Nostratic Verner comes along to prove the fact, it remains
an act of faith -- or common sense -- as in the case of <habere> ~


Too little is known about Nostratic grammar.  In Historical
Linguistics, lexicon is nice, but morphology is nicer. =20

John Kerns' chapter on Grammar in "The Nostratic Macrofamily", while
concentrating on "Northern Nostratic" (Eurasiatic), gives a fair view
of nominal and pronominal morphology (genitive *-n, locative *-nV,
accusative *-m, an ablative involving a dental, etc.), but the absence
of any kind of verbal morphology is disappointing.

I myself recently suggested here that a case can be made for
reconstructing the the Nostratic stative verb paradigm (*-kV, *-tkV,
*-V, *-wenV, *-tkwenV, (?)), based on Ancient Egyptian, Berber,
Semitic, Indo-European and Elamite, with possible traces of the same
paradigm in at least Uralic (Ugric), and the Kartvelian 2pl.p.p.
*tkwen as additional supporting evidence.  There is a problem with the
correspondence PAA *k ~ PIE *H, wich neither Illich-Svitych nor
Bomhard envisages, but then neither system is concerned with
Auslautgesetze.  As far as I know, no proposal had been previously
made to reconstruct this, or any other bit of Nostratic verbal
morphology (but I may be wrong).  In any case, I would have loved to
hear some comments...


One of the most important questions is: which languages belong in
Nostratic?  Illich-Svitych's publications made use of materials from
AA, Kartvelian, IE, Dravidian, Uralic and Altaic (incl. Korean).
Bomhard/Kerns' book uses AA, Kartvelian, IE, Elamo-Dravidian,
Uralic-Yukaghir, Altaic and Sumerian, with occasional references to
Etruscan.  In the Grammar section, Kerns uses Korean and Japanese
examples, while in the preliminary chapters Chukchi-Kamchtakan, Gilyak
and Eskimo-Aleut are explicitly mentioned as members of Nostratic
(which is also in accordance with Dologopol'skij's and Greenberg's

[I have just seen Allan's reply.  A question to Allan: compared with
the tree on p. 36 of the "Nostratic Macrofamily", would your current
views be accurately described by the following diagram?

    |                |
Afrasiatic   ________|________
            |                 |
       Elamo-Dravidian  ______|_______
                       |              |
                  Kartvelian      Eurasiatic

(i.e. Kartvelian and Elamo-Dravidian "switch places", and Sumerian
moves to a level above Nostratic?)]

Greenberg's definition of Eurasiatic not only includes Nivkh, but also
Ainu, which in view of recent discussion (here or on HISTLING?) would
appear to be controversial.

Controversial also remains the position of Sumerian, mainly due to our
imperfect knowledge of both the phonology and the semantics of the
Sumerian lexicon.  I will simply note that the Sumerian sound
correspondences on pp. 125-131 correspond almost exactly with the ones
I independently derived last year from a comparison of IE and

The position of Basque, which I recently tried to link with Nostratic
on this very forum, is of course controversial as well.

In "Postscript 1991" to the Classification of the World's Languages,
Ruhlen quotes Starostin's views that Afro-Asiatic should be considered
coordinate to, not included in Nostratic, and his assertion that
Elamo-Dravidian is the most divergent branch of Nostratic.  Coupled
with Greenberg's views on Eurasiatic [and Allan's comments here], this
seems to indicate some kind of preliminary consensus on the
subgrouping of Nostratic [something like the tree I drew above].
Since Uralic, Altaic and "Chukchi-Eskimo" are beyond my level of
expertise, I cannot judge whether IE is indeed closer to those
languages than it is to AA, Kartvelian or Dravidian (again, not my
specialisms).  I see enough parallels between IE and AA, however
(sound system, the stative verb endings which I outlined above), to
consider the possibility that IE might actually have close ties both
ways and act like a kind of "bridge" between South (AA, Kartv, Drav)
and North (EA, CK, Alt), like Uralic probably does from the other
side.  Which sort of answers Rick's question.

Another issue discussed by Starostin in the same article quoted by
Ruhlen (1989 "Nostratic and Sino-Caucasian", in Shevoroshkin
"Explorations in Language Macrofamilies") is the relationship of
Nostratic as a whole with other macrofamilies.  Unfortunately, I have
not read Starostin's article, but while studying John Bengtson's
materials on Basque and Caucasian, which the author was kind enough to
send me, I could not help but notice some striking parallels between
Proto-North-(East-)Caucasian and Nostratic (*Hwir-i "lake, pond"
[*Haw-, *Hw-er- "rain"]; *tl'a:npV "lip" [PAA *tlip-at- "lip", etc.];
*tl_w-irV "horn" [*tlir- "highest point/rank"]; *dzwhari: "star" [PSem
*?iTtar-, PIE *ster- etc.]; *X~wejrV "dog" [PIE *k(u)on- "dog", PU
*ku"jna" "wolf"]; *swerho "old" [*dzwer- "old" or *syiny- "old" ?];
*s'u"no "year" [*syiny- "old, year" if this is not a loan from
Semitic]; *=3Da":sA "to sit" [*?asy- "to sit"]; *s_e:HmV "vein, muscle"
[*sin- "sinew, tendon, vein"]; *b~ak'V "(palm of the) hand" [PIE
*bha:ghu- "elbow, lower arm"]; *?iman "to stay" [*man- "to stay"], to
quote the most obvious ones).

The above suggest some kind of relationship between Nostratic (however
defined) and (Macro-)Caucasian (however defined).  One area which I
for one would very much like to see investigated would be that of
possible relations of Nostratic with the African language groups
(Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Kordofanian, Macro-Khoisan).  Which brings me to:


Another issue that is closely intertwined with the others.
Determining linguistically which languages are part of Nostratic could
shed some light on interpreting the archaeological data.  Conversely,
knowing the archaeological data can guide our thoughts on linguistic
relationships and time depths.

It is funny that Allan has just said: "Afrasian stands apart as an
extremely ancient, independent branch -- it was the first branch of
Nostratic to separate from the rest of the Nostratic speech
community", as this is the exact opposite of how I would put it.
I would regard the speakers of Afro-Asiatic as the "stay behinds",
while the rest of Nostratic wandered out into North Africa, the Near
East and Europe.  The linguist effect (at least as it affects AA
versus the rest) is of course the same.

Suffice it to quote something that I wrote some time ago on the
Basque-L, in the course of a speculative discussion on
historico-linguistic matters with Miguel Aguirre Martinez, who is also
Spanish and also lives in the Netherlands...

[I wrote on the BASQUE-L:]

In my view, the history of Homo displays a remarkably stable pattern=20
from its inception in Africa more than a million years ago to about=20
10,000 years BP.  Africa, and in particular the upper Nile valley=20
(Sudan) has acted as a population "pump", injecting new populations=20
into the rest of the world at regular intervals.  We cannot trace=20
every single episode, but some of the major ones are clear:

1,000,000 BP: expansion of Homo Erectus (Lower Paleolithic).
Java man and Peking man show that Erectus migrated from Africa to=20
Asia early on. =20

150,000 BP: expansion of Homo Sapiens (Middle Paleolithic).
This is where I would put "Proto-World".  This stage marks the origin=20
of the Neanderthal populations of North Africa, the Near East, Europe=20
and Central Asia.  I haven't got much information on the physical=20
characteristics of the populations of India, SE Asia and China in=20
this period ("Solo man"?), but at the risk of not being politically=20
correct, I'd suggest a link with the modern "Australoid" populations=20
(Vedda, Negrito, Papuan and Australian).  This simply means that=20
Neanderthal man was fully a member of our own species, as is=20
the current palaeoanthropological consensus. =20

50,000 BP: expansion of "H.S.Sapiens" (Upper Paleolithic).
This is in fact the expansion of the Aurignacian culture, which=20
developed in Africa and the Near East 50 or 60,000 years ago, and=20
subsequently spread to Europe (40,000 BP), Central Asia, and=20
presumably India as well.  In SE Asia and Europe, the Aurignacian=20
penetration was only partial, and we have several cultures that seem=20
to continue Middle Paleolithic traditions (pebble-tool cultures in SE=20
Asia and China, the Lower Perigordian (Ch=D7telperronian) in Western=20
Europe, the Uluzzian in Italy and the Szeletian in Eastern Europe.
Linguistically, Austric, Macro-Caucasian, Sino-Tibetan, Na-Dene and=20
the various Amerind groups may be traced back to this wave.

30,000 BP: Gravettian.
The Gravettian absorbed the Aurignacian, Chatelperronian, Uluzzian,=20
and Szeletian cultures in North Africa, the Near East and Europe.
Apart from the post-glacial expansions into Siberia [and the Neolithic
expansions], there is a perfect geographical match with the
"Nostratic" macro-family.

15,000 BP?: Afro-Asiatic.
Sometime between the Gravettian expansion and the Neolithic,=20
the Egyptian, Berber-Chadic and Semitic populations must have=20
expanded from the Sudan to Northern Africa and the Near East=20
(Palestine), leaving Cushitic and Omotic in the Sudanese homeland.

By the time of the Neolithic, the stage was set for yet another=20
African wave, as Nilo-Saharans had pushed the Omotians-Cushites out=20
of the Sudan (Nubia).  However, the Neolithic population explosion in=20
Egypt and the Near East effectively blocked the way for any new=20
migrations out of Africa, and with the modern advance of Arabic=20
southwards into the Sudan, the pattern seems to have been partially=20
reversed, for the first time in human history.

[end quote]

I must repeat that the above is highly speculative.

But what it suggests in linguistical terms is a kind of "onion like"
structure of the Nostratic macrofamily, with Omotic at the core [and
that's where possible links with African families would be most
interesting to examine], Cushitic and Beja the inner ring, then
"Northern Afrasiatic" (Ancient Egyptian, Semitic, Berber-Chadic).  The
next layer(s) would be Basque [N.Africa=3D>W.Europe], Etruscan and IE
[S.Europe], Eurasiatic [E.Europe=3D>Siberia], Kartvelian, Elamo-
Dravidian and Sumerian [N.East].  Then, no longer "Nostratic", but
distantly related, come the layers consisting of Caucasian/Yeniseian/
Sino-Tibetan [C.Asia], Burushaski and Nahali [S.Asia], "Austric"
[SE.Asia], with Na-Dene and the various Amerind groups as offshoots of
these groups into the New World.

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~
mcv@pi.net                 |_____________|||


<44:8>From Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com Tue Apr  8 05:50:59 1997

From: "Izzy (Israel) Cohen (req-telaviv)" <Izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com>
To: Euralex list <'euralex@ims.uni-stuttgart.de'.ndsoft.com>,
        BILINGUAL list <bilingual@ied.edu.hk>,
        SNUNIT Educational Info System <boker@snunit.cc.huji.ac.il>,
        E-LEX list <e-lex@listserv.acns.nwu.edu>,
        heblang list <heblang@shamash.org>
        Hist of Eng Lang - list <hel-l@ebbs.english.vt.edu>,
        Lang-Culture list <language-culture@cs.uchicago.edu>,
        LINGANTH <linganth@cc.rochester.edu>,
        NOSTRATIC list <nostratic@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>,
Subject: Language Conferences/Seminars web site
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:47:00 +0300

Appologies for multiple postings:

The language conference list located on the WWW at URL


has been updated with over 80 new conferences and
about 2 dozen other changes since the February 1997 edition.

Conference Schedule
 for Linguists, Translators, Interpreters and Teachers of Languages.

(Clicking on the applicable link will provide
 additional conference information).

2000 - 2003!

Quarterly events for which the exact date is not known.
Annual events for which the exact date is not known.
Biennial events for which the exact date is not known.
A special "continuing" event.
Your chance to publish your scholarly work on language.
Links for linguists I've run across while searching for conferences.
I've even found some job opportunities for linguists.
Past schedules will remain on the list for several months after the
date of the function for those who may wish to plan for next year.

For maintenance convenience, this list
is divided into several pages. They are:
     confer.html The conference list home page.
     confer7.html for conferences in 1997.
     confer8.html for conferences in 1998 and beyond.
     conf_pub.html for miscellaneously scheduled conferences
        and other links for linguists.
     confer_x.html for past conference schedules.
     con_links.html for useful conference-related links.

    Searching for Conferences

Conferences are listed chronologically.
No attempt has been made at this time to
provide a means to search the list for a
particular type of conference. Perhaps this
capability will be available in the future.
One may, of course, search the list using
the "find" or "search" function of the WWW
browser being used.

I have moved the links where one may search for
additional conferences to its own page because the
number is growing so large and beginning to clutter
this page even more. There also are links to other
related sites which Linguists, Translators, Inter-
preters and Teachers of Languages should find of value.

As all information pasted to the list is cut from the
original source (hypertexted with each schedule) I cannot
be held responsible for errors. Check the provided source,
first. Otherwise, please send corrections, additions, and
updates to royfcoch@clark.net (Roy F. Cochrun)

Return to Roy's Russian Resource home page

Last update 5 April 1997.
* * * *

Information forwarded by:
Israel Cohen


<44:9>From GBRansom@aol.com Mon Apr 14 02:43:55 1997

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:43:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: GBRansom@aol.com
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: The History of Linguistics as an Historical Inquiry

I'd like to get some good leads from Darwin-L specialists
before I hit the stacks looking for books and articles documenting
the history of linguistics as an historical discipline.  I am
particularly interested in the pre-Darwin period before 1859.  I am
looking for research that lays out the role of 'evolutionary
thinking' (_not_ selective thinking) in the work of folks looking
at the evolution of language, ancient documents, or Roman grammar
textbooks from the ancient period.  As an aspect of this I would
also like to get a good historical account of the history of the word
'evolution' -- especially in regard to the used of the word in _non-
biological_ contexts prior to 1859.  Are there any particularly recommended
articles or books on these topics known to specialists on Darwin-L?

Greg Ransom
Dept. of Philosophy


<44:10>From ronald@hawaii.edu Mon Apr 14 14:52:41 1997

Date: 	Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:48:42 -1000
From: Ron Amundson <ronald@hawaii.edu>
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: The History of Linguistics as an Historical Inquiry

On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 GBRansom@aol.com wrote:

> I'd like to get some good leads from Darwin-L specialists
> before I hit the stacks looking for books and articles documenting
> the history of linguistics as an historical discipline.  I am
> particularly interested in the pre-Darwin period before 1859.

I'd like to get these, too.  (Ain't I helpful?)

>  As an aspect of this I would
> also like to get a good historical account of the history of the word
> 'evolution' -- especially in regard to the used of the word in _non-
> biological_ contexts prior to 1859.  Are there any particularly recommended
> articles or books on these topics known to specialists on Darwin-L?

Robert Richards's _The Meaning of Evolution_.  A short version was
published in a collection called _Keywords in Evolution_ (?).  Some of
Richards's conclusions about Darwin are overstated, IMHO.

There were no significant non-biological uses of the term prior to Darwin,
to my knowledge.  So I doubt that the etymology of "evolution"  will be
helpful or appropriate to the pre-Darwinian era you're discussing.  Even
Darwin didn't use it in the modern sense of "descent with modification,"
which is part of Richards's point.

Ron Amundson
University of Hawaii at Hilo


<44:11>From YTL@vms.huji.ac.il Tue Apr 15 07:56:14 1997

Date: Tue,  15 Apr 97 15:52 +0300
From: <YTL@vms.huji.ac.il>
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: History of Linguistics

Two back-to-back articles  in the Dictionary of the History of Ideas should be
a good place to get started. They are "Linguistics" and "Linguistic Theories in
British Seventeenth Century Philosophy."

Tzvi Langermann


<44:12>From snoe@ivy.tec.in.us Mon Apr 21 10:33:53 1997

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:39:00 +0500
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
From: snoe@ivy.tec.in.us (Stephen Noe)
Subject: Re: The History of Linguistics as an Historical Inquiry

>Ron Amundson wrote:
>[snip of useful references]
>There were no significant non-biological uses of the term [evolution] prior
>to Darwin, to my knowledge.

In 17th and 18th century military context, "evolutions" were those maneuvers
conducted by large infantry and naval formations in order to place opposing
formations at a tactical disadvantage, and thereby defeat them.  They were
very precisely calculated, very complex, and were constrained by the
pre-existing conditions of weather, terrain, time of encounter, etc.  It has
been my understanding that biology, pre-Darwin, appropriated the word
because it described an unfolding of pre-existing potentiality, such as the
Scala Naturae.


<44:13>From ahouse@hydra.rose.brandeis.edu Wed Apr 23 07:56:40 1997

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:55:23 -0400
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu (Darwin List)
From: "Jeremy C. Ahouse" <ahouse@hydra.rose.brandeis.edu>
Subject: You shall know them


	I have just been reading Vercors (1953) "You shall know them"
(trans. Rita Barisse, French version was entitled, "Les Animaux
Denatures"). This is well worth digging up, some of you would enjoy it. It
is a short novel describing the finding of a *new* species that is
ambiguously close to humans. As no one is sure of its status there is the
immediate move of a ruthless businessman to use them as cheap/free workers
(on the cattle model). The main character has a child with one, kills it,
and presents himself to the police as a murderer.

	Along the way a number to systematic issues are aired. I wish it
were still in print it would make for good discussions among students.

	- Jeremy

        Jeremy C. Ahouse
        Biology Department
        Brandeis University
        Waltham, MA 02254-9110
ph:     (617) 736-4954
fax:    (617) 736-2405
email:  ahouse@hydra.rose.brandeis.edu
web:    http://www.rose.brandeis.edu/users/simister/pages/Ahouse


<44:14>From smithkel@TCNJ.EDU Fri Apr 25 12:32:22 1997

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:26:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kelly C Smith <smithkel@TCNJ.EDU>
To: Darwin-L list <darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Down House

   I just heard that the British government is trying to raise 5 million
pounds to restore Down house, which is said to be in a shocking state of
disrepair.  I am spreading the word so that people can donate and/or
help spread the word if they like.  Checks can be sent to:

The Down House Appeal
ATTN: Nancy Giles
The Natural History Museum
Cromwell Road
London SW17 5BD
Telephone: (0) 171-973-3092


Kelly C. Smith                  "Teaching is not a lost art, but the regard
Philosophy Department           for it is a lost tradition" - Jaques Barzun
The College of New Jersey*
Hillwood Lakes  CN 4700         "For every complex problem there is a simple,
Trenton, NJ  08650-4700         easy to understand, incorrect answer."
(609) 771-2524 Office                                       - Szent-Gyo'rgyi
(215) 702-7008 Home
(609) 771-3385 Fax              "One should always keep an open mind, but not
Smithkel@trenton.edu            so open that one's brains fall out."
                                                           - Bertrand Russell

                  "Others apart sat on a Hill retir'd
                   In thoughts more elevate, and reason'd high
                   Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will and Fate,
                   Fixt Fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute,
                   And found no end, in wandering mazes lost."
                     - (punishment of fallen angels, Paradise Lost)

*formerly Trenton State College


<44:15>From John@attach.edu.ar Fri Apr 25 09:40:05 1997

From: Juan Carlos Garelli <John@attach.edu.ar>
To: darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Date: 	Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:27:11 -0300
Subject: Chomsky
Organization: Attachment Research Center

Hello everybody,

I would like you to know that a new list by the name of Chomsky has
been launched on the Internet.

Chomsky mainly deals with his political ideals and activism, although
contributions on his linguistic work is also welcome.

To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
with the message:


For example: SUBSCRIBE CHOMSKY John Perez

Chomsky list has been set up at the server of the University of St
John's which manages its lists by means of Lsoft 1.8c.

Lsoft 1.8c supports a WWW interface whereby all archived messages can
be read.

You can find Chomsky WWW interface at:


Thank you for your attention,

JC Garelli, CHOMSKY listowner

Juan Carlos Garelli, M.D., Ph.D.
Department of Early Development
University of Buenos Aires
Email: john@attach.edu.ar


<44:16>From haavn@wildrose.net Tue Apr 29 15:29:28 1997

From: "Neil Haave" <haavn@wildrose.net>
To: biocan@net.bio.net, biology@think.net, caduceus-l@beach.utmb.edu,
        darwin-l@raven.cc.ukans.edu, ishpsb-l@tc.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:25:05 +0000
Subject: CFP: Generating Surprises -- The Post/Disciplinary University

Conference Announcement and Call for Papers


3rd International Conference
Sponsored by the
Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in the Liberal Arts (CIRLA)
at Augustana University College

Thursday evening, May 7 through
Sunday noon, May 10, 1998
at The Banff Centre for Conferences, Banff, Alberta, Canada

Conference Web Site: http://www.augustana.ab.ca/cirla/cirla98/
post- / pref.  1 the afterthought, the afterword.  2 what depends on the
already existing.  3 what looks back, what looks forward.  4 what is
refined from the old, what is reconstructed from the ruins.  5 the space
that is cleared for new possibilities.  6 that which is defined in terms
of another.

discipline / n.  1 a branch of instruction or learning.  2 research
programs.  3 regimes of truth.  4 methods leading to reliable knowledge.
5 curricula. 6 tradition.  7 privileged forms of knowledge.  8 home.

post-disciplinary / adj.  ?   (To be Investigated, May 1998, Banff)

The third CIRLA conference, to be held at the Banff Centre for
Conferences, will investigate the encounters, connections, reproductions,
and surprises that occur both within the university and between the
university and the community which it serves.  Are surprises possible
anymore in the university?  The three-day-long conversation will address
questions of post- disciplinarity through keynote speakers, panel
discussions, paper presentations, and informal contact.  A reception is
planned for the Thursday evening, with a dinner on Saturday evening, and
many surprises in between. The program will be planned so that
participants will have time to explore all that Banff has to offer.

Papers or abstracts may be submitted on any of the following topics
(NOTE: this list is not exhaustive, but is meant to give an idea of some
relevant issues. If you have an idea for a paper or session that is not
included here, please contact the director of CIRLA):

  What is society's responsibility toward the university?
  What is the university's responsibility toward its communities?
  What's the point?: Has liberal education been taken over by
  other interests?   The university and/as business
  Media(tion): The public face of the university
  Encounters between the university and government
The public intellectual: Romantic ideal, necessary evil, or...?

   Is there anything beyond the discipline? beyond the "inter-discipline"?
   Does interdisciplinarity become its own discipline?
   Beyond suspicion: (How) Can the sciences and the humanities get along?
   Who's in and who's out when it comes to interdisciplinarity?
   Whose tradition?: The place of diverse traditions and ways of knowing

   In defense of the discipline, or of interdisciplinarity
   Colonization 1: Disciplines in relation to other disciplines
   Colonization 2: Disciplines in relation to non-Western forms of
   Colonization 3: The feminist challenge to traditional ways of thinking
   Is the internet better than the classroom?
   Is the tradition of liberal education viable today?
   What kind of students do disciplines produce?

   Pedagogy: Beyond formulas and trends
   Implications of research into disciplinarity
   Administrative and structural innovations
   Cooperative ventures   discipline, community, nation

If you are willing to submit a paper or organize a symposium on one of
the above topics or on another one, please contact us.  For more
information, please contact:

       Bruce Janz, Director
       Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in the Liberal Arts
       c/o Chris Jensen McCloy
       Augustana University College
       4901-46 Ave., Camrose, Alberta CANADA T4V 2R3
           TEL: (403)679-1130; FAX: (403)679-1161
           email: CIRLA@AUGUSTANA.AB.CA
           WWW Site:  http://www.augustana.ab.ca/cirla

Information on submissions:

Deadline for abstracts, draft papers, or session proposals: November 15,

Notification of acceptance: February 1, 1998.


The Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in the Liberal Arts

The Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in the Liberal Arts (CIRLA) was
founded in 1990 to promote dialogue about liberal arts university
education and interdisciplinary research and teaching. Based at Augustana
University College in Camrose, Alberta, CIRLA sponsors a number of

develop an understanding of what a liberal arts education is in its own
terms and in light of what liberal arts means for society as a whole
through discursive thinking.  We begin with the assumption that the
separate disciplines do not have to look for a common ground: insofar as
they are part of education, they already share this common ground.
_Dianoia_ is thus a forum for this already-shared and public aspect of our
separate disciplines.  Papers from this conference will be considered for
publication in _Dianoia_. _Dianoia_ website:

COLLOQUIUM SERIES.  CIRLA sponsors a colloquium series at Augustana
University College, designed to foster interdisciplinary dialogue.

CONFERENCES.  CIRLA'S previous conference, "Liberal Arts and the Future
of University Education," was held in May 1996 at the Banff Centre.  Over
100 people attended; keynote speakers were Dr. Peter Emberley and Dr.
Ursula Franklin. "Fragmentation and the Desire for Order/Unity" was held
in April 1993 at Augustana.  It brought together scholars from across
Canada and the United States.  Several of the conference papers were
published in _Dianoia_.

VISITING SCHOLARS.  CIRLA hosts visiting scholars for short visits at
Augustana University College each year.  Past scholars have been: Dr.
Gwynne Dyer (Public Affairs), 1994; Dr. Michael McDonald (Ethics), 1996;
Dr. Julie Lutz (Astronomy), 1996; Dr. Steven Ward (Journalism), 1997.

PUBLIC CONVERSATION.  CIRLA runs a weekly column ("Educated Guesses") in
the _Camrose Canadian_ newspaper.  It is designed to raise issues relevant
to the university and society.

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES.  WWW Site: http://www.augustana.ab.ca/cirla/.  This
site contains resources and links to issues relevant to university
education, liberal education, and interdisciplinarity. Discussion list:
CIRLA-L is an e-mail discussion group designed to discuss issues of
higher education, liberal arts, and interdisciplinarity, and also to
announce upcoming conferences, calls for papers, information on the CIRLA
conference, and other relevant events.  To sign on, send the message
"Subscribe" to CIRLA-L-Request@augustana.ab.ca.

CIRLA is supported by PanCanadian Oil and Augustana University College.

Darwin-L Message Log 44: 1-16 -- April 1997                                 End

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